2 June 2005

Our young people are simply too precious

Let us ask their forgiveness for sending them to a war that should never have happened
Nothing young Americans can do in life is more honorable than offering themselves for the defense of their nation. It requires great selflessness and sacrifice, and quite possibly the forfeiture of life itself. On Memorial Day 2005, we gather to remember all those who gave us that ultimate gift. Because they are so fresh in our minds, those who have died in Iraq make a special claim on our thoughts and our prayers.

In exchange for our uniformed young people's willingness to offer the gift of their lives, civilian Americans owe them something important: It is our duty to ensure that they never are called to make that sacrifice unless it is truly necessary for the security of the country. In the case of Iraq, the American public has failed them; we did not prevent the Bush administration from spending their blood in an unnecessary war based on contrived concerns about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. President Bush and those around him lied, and the rest of us let them. Harsh? Yes. True? Also yes. Perhaps it happened because Americans, understandably, don't expect untruths from those in power. But that works better as an explanation than as an excuse.

The "smoking gun," as some call it, surfaced on May 1 in the London Times. It is a highly classified document containing the minutes of a July 23, 2002, meeting at 10 Downing Street in which Sir Richard Dearlove, head of Britain's Secret Intelligence Service, reported to Prime Minister Tony Blair on talks he'd just held in Washington. His mission was to determine the Bush administration's intentions toward Iraq.



Comments

U.S. Confirms Gitmo Soldier Kicked Quran

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON -

The Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior."

In other confirmed incidents, a guard's urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case, a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.

The findings, released after normal business hours Friday evening, are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba, that was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report — later retracted — that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo Bay detainee's Quran down a toilet.

Read the entire story here:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?...
Notice how they released the story Friday night:

"released after normal business hours Friday evening"

From what I understand, the US government releases stories like this on a weekend to try and lessen the impact.

My questions are:

FIRST
Why was this pentagon report released in the first place?

2nd:

Why has the Bush administration publicly argued about the accusations of Amnesty International-- only giving the accusations of AI even MORE publicity?
PBS online newshour:

William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA.

Reporter:
Mr. Schulz, what is the basis for your charge that Guantanamo Bay is, in fact, the gulag of our times?

Schulz:

WILLIAM SCHULZ: Well, let me say first this that this is, of course, not an exact analogy. There are differences between the Soviet gulags, differences in size. We don't expect, we have no reports that there is forced labor at Guantanamo or the other U.S. detention centers or that people are being starved.

But there are similarities. The United States is maintaining an archipelago of prisons, many of them secret prisons in which people are being disappeared. They are being held in incommunicado detention without access to the judicial system.

That is similar to the gulags. They are being held without access to their families; that is similar. And in many cases, they are being mistreated, abused, and even killed. In fact, there have been at least a hundred deaths of detainees, 27 of which have been ruled to be homicides by medical examiners.
...
The FBI agents there at Guantanamo Bay reported their concerns about people held in stress positions for eighteen to twenty-four hours. The Red Cross itself reported on sleep deprivation there....even if it doesn't rise to the level of torture.

And finally, we also know that the United States is clearly in violation of the Geneva Conventions because the conventions require that if a captor does not want to label captives prisoners of war.
...So that's some of the reasons that this charge has been made.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour...

Foxnews web page on the report:
(Fox puts words in Schulz mouth):

"Amnesty Chief: 'Gulag' Not the Best Analogy"
(Schulz, in the interview, never said "'Gulag' Not the Best Analogy" Fox also cuts out all of the most aggregious human rights abuses from Schulz interview)

See the Foxnews report:
http://www.foxnews.com/stor...

The full Amnesty International report is found here:
http://web.amnesty.org/repo...
I await all the justfications for our abuse from our two conservative friends, one using purely emotional appeals, the other using scriptures.

IF you decide to knock A.I. and defend the Bush administration, Please keep this in mind this quote:

"When we are reduced to insisting that our depravity isn't as bad as the other guy's, we have fallen deep into a pit of moral equivalence that reveals what we have lost."

--Their Humiliation, and Ours The U.S. was forced to see itself as the world does — and it was painful to behold

Time magazine Monday, May. 17, 2004

What has this war on terror cost us as a nation? In our standing in the world: as a beacon of freedom and hope, our own national morality?
Well, looks like the arabs have even more reasons to hate us. The story about the koran is now on CNN, and should be picked up by other media outlets soon.

Did the Pentagon make up this story to Mondo? How are you going to twist this story to fit your personal beliefs?

I notice Kerry and Mondo have been awful silent lately about how successful Iraq is.

See, I have had Arab friends, even before Iraq they despised us. Just like we would despise Arabs if they invaded Christian lands and killed hundreds of thousands of Chrisitians. Imagine if Iraq would have invaded us?

Welcome to your own Vietnam Kerry and Mondo-- history repeats itself. Unfortunatly, looks like the 3% of democracies in 10 years is still valid. (The statistic Kerry continually ignores, because it doesnt fit neat into her own world view, and most Americans don't know, or don't care to know, to our detriment)

But heh, they are all terrorists anyway, right Kerry? Nuke em all! WE are the real victims, right Kerry? 3,000 dead Americans is much worse than over 600,000 dead Iraqis (100,000 more if you count the Gulf war--which I feel was a just war) and tens of thousands of dead Afghanistans.

Appears like the Bush adminstriation has the same flawed and dangerous reasoning. American's ignorance of the world, and their own history, costs so many lives. IF you could have seen the hate in my Arab friends eyes, the vitrol! But heh, all my Arab friends are just terrorists anyway, right Kerry? I mean I am married to a former Soviet, so if we would have gone to war, she deserved to die too ten years ago during the Cold war because she was a communist, right Kerry?

Gotta go pick up my wife...
"Did the Pentagon make up this story to Mondo? How are you going to twist this story to fit your personal beliefs?"

*lol* Do i detect a note of joy in your typings dear friend? As you may have noticed I never stated that I believed NO American is capable of doing bone headed things, you act as if we should all be reguarded by our lowest common denominator. I do not doubt that some Americans do bad things I never stated otherwise travis, But as stated before, and agreed by you, the majority of Americans are MORAL and descent. I can tell you this if kicking the quran is the worst thing we can do to a prisoner when we have all seen the way the islamic extremist treat their prisoners, I would prefer to have a book kicked. here's a question travis, do you know how many Christian symbols of faith, Bibles, and Crosses are destroyed every day in ARAB nations? I am not condoning such actions, but I can say that if Muslims are offended by one or two Amaricans stepping on the quran, They should also be offended by the destructin of Christian and Jewish wrightings and relics, sinde after all they agree that both the Old and New testiment are the word of GOD and that Jesus was a holy man and prophit. We all know that those extremists are looking for anyreason to hate us, if its not our military its the way our women dress. We all know it's all really about Israel let's stop kidding ourselves into pretending otherwise. Its great to see you find such JOY in a story about a miniscule offence and strive to take the actions of one tenth of one percent of american prison officials and try and paint the whole NATION as shameful and disgusting.
Here are some more stories that are deserving of outrage

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct...

"PAKISTAN

Muslims Destroy Christian Village
A mob of 30,000 Pakistani Muslims, believing a Christian damaged a copy of the Qur'an, destroyed three-quarters of the homes in the Christian village of Shantinagar in the Punjab province on February 5.

Rioters also burned the Salvation Army church in Shantinagar to the ground and destroyed the Church of Pakistan and Saint Joseph's Catholic Church in nearby Khanawel. "It was a totally preplanned activity," charged Patras Yusaf, Roman Catholic bishop of Multan.

Police killed two Muslims in the fracas, and at least 20 people suffered serious injuries.

The riot broke out after a mosque in Khanewal, about 200 miles south of Lahore, broadcast over loudspeakers that Christians had ripped pages from the Qur'an and scribbled insults against the prophet Muhammad on the sacred writings of Islam. The announcement was repeated at other area mosques packed with the faithful celebrating Ramadan, the Muslim holy month. Christian leaders deny the charge.

Yusaf and other local Christians blame the police for instigating the riot and say officers may have been the ones to throw the pages of the Qur'an into the mosques. In January, Christians protested for three days after a Muslim police officer damaged a Bible during a search. The police officer has been suspended.

One week after the incident, another Christian was wounded by police gunfire in Karachi during a demonstration against the Khanewal riot.

Approximately 3 million of Pakistan's 120 million people are Christians."
http://www.fatimaperspectiv...

""Religion of Peace" Update
Muslims destroy Christian villages in Indonesia
by Christopher A. Ferrara

The line adopted by the mass media, and echoed by the Vatican Secretariat of State, is that "authentic Islam" is "a religion of peace" and that Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, including 9-11, has nothing to do with "authentic Islam." No, in today’s emerging New World Order of peace, brotherhood and abortion on demand, there is no such thing as a bad religion - except for Roman Catholicism, for whose "sins" the Vatican is now only too willing to apologize.

Well, don’t tell Bishop Josef Suwatan of Manado, Indonesia about how peaceful the religion of Islam is. As reported by Fides, "an estimated 50,000 mainly Christian refugees are fleeing brutal sectarian attacks by Muslim Laskar Jihad militants about 40 kilometers south of Poso town. Bishop Josef Suwatan of Manado (Northern Sulawesi) told Fides that scores of well organised, uniformed militia equipped with machine-guns, rocket launchers and even bulldozers attacked villages in Poso area, destroying hundreds of mainly-Christian homes. The Catholic Bishop called for police intervention to restore order."

I am not condoning the actions of americans at gitmo, but tell me what is worse a little piddle on a quran or a village left homeless?

http://www.muslimhope.com/I...

"
Muslims Have Said Islam is a Religion of Peace - But Where?
In Nigeria? In 1987 churches were set on fire in Kaduna and Kafanchan and Muslims killed hundreds of Christians.
In Algeria? Algerian Muslim students in the Houston admit that those who convert from Islam are killed in their country.
In the Sudan? Muslim are enslaving and selling women and children of the Dinka tribe according to the London Economist. The May 4, 1992 special ed. of Newsweek on slavery also reported that Muslims are still enslaving blacks as did the Austin American Statesman on 2/2/1996. Reader’s Digest 3/1996 p.77-81 "Slavery’s Shameful Return to Africa" is a heart-wrenching account of oppression today. Also, mosques are being bombed by Muslims of different groups.
In Egypt? A Muslim doctor was stabbed by a Muslim extremist. His crime? - treating a Christian stabbed by a Muslim extremist.
In Iran? On 13/3/1990 Iranian Christian pastor Rev. Hussein Soodmand was taken from his prison cell and executed because 21 years earlier he had converted from Islam to Christianity. Besides Christians, Baha’is, Sufis, and Zoroastrians have also been killed by government authorities.
In Afghanistan, the Sunni Taliban massacred about 3,000 Shi’ite Hazaris. This was probably in revenge for Hazaris massacring about 2,000 Taliban fighters earlier in the war.
In Tajikistan, there has been a brutal civil war that pitted Muslims against Muslims.
In Pakistan, a teenage girl was executed for converting from Islam to Christianity. Small Muslim sects, such as the Ahmaddiya, are by law persecuted by the authorities in Pakistan.
In the Qur’an? "Kill them, and Allah will torment them by your hands. He will humiliate them and give you victory over them…" (Sura 9:14) "Fight those who believe not… even if they be People of the book [Christians and Jews] until they have willingly agreed to pay the Jizya tribute in recognition of their submissive state." (Sura 9:29)
In Iraq, so far I have not heard of any persecution of Christians more than any other groups. Perhaps Iraq today, that pristine paragon of peace, is where Islam is most like a religion of peace."
http://www.persecution.org/...

http://jihadwatch.org/

http://www.dalitstan.org/jo...

http://www.hannity.com/foru...

http://www.islamreview.com/...

I wonder where all the American Christians are marching in outrage over the attacks on Christians around the world? Where are the Christians burning ARAB flags and calling for the death of Arab leaders? If after all we are all religious fanatics , blinded by our stone age beliefs and superstitions, it would be fitting that we all take to the streets and demand JUSTICE be served. You know what, we are to busy FEEDING and providing MEDICAL CARE for those poor sick people in nations that cant seem to provide for themselves, we are to busy building schools and hospitals in war torn nations and drought AND POVERTY stricken regions around the world. We are to busy giving AID to the victims of Decembers Tsunami in a Nation that a week before set forth actions to OUTLAW CHRISTIANITY.

So you can side with those that hate us and find joy when we are "shamed" I will still contribute to what peaceful causes I can around the world and try to make a difference in those Nations that Hate and ENVY us. Let's see who gets a better feeling when they wake up in the morning shall we. lets see who Loves life just a little bit more each day and is proud of the GOOD our NATION does around the world...and shamed when a few bone headed idiots in probably all good intentions give the irrational hate filled despots a new reason to cry JIHAD. So gloat while you can and feel proud that you can post so many news articles stating the same mumbo-jumbo that was released weeks ago by the pentagon. That is how I will "twist" this story to fit my beliefs hotshot.

THE DESIRE FOR HATRED AND DEVISIVNESS MUST END...

http://quantumthought.blogs...
"112 Christian Churches Destroyed By Muslims In Kosovo-Metohija and Macedonia
The Systematic Destruction of Orthodox Christian Churches
and Cemeteries in Kosovo-Metohija and Macedonia"

http://ctlibrary.com/keywor...

http://www.answering-islam....

"Violence in the Bible and the Qur'an
A Christian Perspective

After the events of September 11th, the issue of violence and religion has once again come into intense discussions and debate. As soon as Christians and others of good will condemn the Islamic justification and foundation for resorting to violence in the name of God—justifications found both in the Qur'an and the life of prophet Muhammad—we are quickly told that the Bible (especially the Old Testament scriptures) and Christian history are also filled with violence and that we should not single out Islam or the Qur'an in this regard."

http://www.classicalyoga.or...

Striving to curb violence

The roots of violence are found in "meism;" i.e., "me against you" and manifest as beliefs and resultant attitudes and actions ("b.a.a." syndrome). Fair play and sportsmanship is healthy competition. Firm conviction of blatant wrongdoing is necessary justice. In the spiritual/religious realm, humans can often cross the line into violence when we confuse universal principles with only specific names and forms or attempt to deny the forms altogether. This confusion can create not only the potentially dangerous illusion of Monotheism with its very real bullfights but also an illusive "no way universal way."

http://www.awesomelibrary.o...

Muslims Against Terrorism

"Over the past several decades, some persons of Arabian descent who claimed to be Muslims have committed terrorist acts against the United States. Those events, plus conflicts in the Middle East, media labeling terrorists as Muslims, the Taliban's treatment of women, and a history of conflict between Christians and Muslims, have created a number of myths.

The most dangerous myth is that Islam condones terrorism. Another myth is that Muslims are mostly Arabians. A third myth is that in Islamic teachings, men are allowed to terrorize women. A fourth myth is that Islamic teachings allow a government to force everyone to be Muslims."
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH TRAVIS. I REALLY HAVE TO THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. YOUR DESIRE TO TEACH ME HAS BEEN FULFILLED. YOU HAVE ENLIGHTENED ME AND SHOWN ME ASPECTS OF THE HUMAN NATURE I WOULD NEVER TRULY BE ABLE TO GRASP ON MY OWN.
I REALLY FEEL I OWE YOU A DEBT OF GRATITUDE AND MUST APOLOGIZE FOR EVER MAKING YOU FEEL THAT OUR CONVERSATIONS WERE MEANINGLESS AND YOU WERE NOT GETTING THROUGH TO ME. YOU HAVE, MORE THAN YOU MAY EVER KNOW. I STOPPED LISTENING TO TALK RADIO SOMETIME AT THE END OF LAST YEAR AND HAVE BEEN LISTENING MAINLY TO A CHRISTIAN RADIO STATION. WELL I MISS LISTENING TO RUSH AND HAD TO GO AND GET MYSELF A MEMBERSHIP TO RUSH 24/7 HIS ON-LINE MEMBERS ONLY PAY SIGHT,SO I CAN STILL LISTEN TIO MY CHRISTIAN BASED MUSIC AND INFORMATION AND LISTEN TO GOOD OLE RUSH WHEN I FEEL I NEED TO. SO I THINK RUSH LIMBAUGH OWES YOU A DEBT OF GRATITUDE AS HE NOW HAS SOME OF MY MONEY AND SOMEONE ELSE TO GIVE THOSE GREAT PEARLS OF WISDOM TO. THIS MONTH I DOUBLED THE AMOUNT OF MONEY I WILL BE GIVING TO CHRISTIAN CHARITIES, AND I PLAN TO MAKE SOME KIND OF CONTRIBUTION TO THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS IN SUPPORT OF AS MANY CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES AS I CAN SO I FEEL AMERICA AND OUR LEADERS ALONG WITH MYSELF OWE YOU A GREAT BIG WET SLOPPY KISS OF GRATITUDE. I HOPE YOU KEEP ON DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING I HAVE A GOOD IDEAL FOR EVERY FAT LAZY CONSERVATIVE OUT THERE WHO WAS INSPIRED TO GET OFF THE COUCH AND GO OUT AND VOTE THERE WAS SOMEONE NOT UNLIKE YOU WHO GAVE THAT EXTRA PUSH THAT ENABLED US TO PRY OUR BLOATED BEHINDS OUT THE DOOR AND DO SOMETHING FOR THE CAUSES WE BELIEVE IN. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK MY FRIEND YOU ARE MY INSPIRATION AND WITHOUT YOU I MIGHT NOT BE HALF AS INCLINED TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO SUPPORT THE CONSERVATIVE AGENDA IN YEARS TO COME. I AM SO GLAD THAT I NO LONGER SUPPORT THE LIBERAL CAUSES OF THE WORLD AND SEE THEM FOR THE DEVISIVE HATEFILLED SELF SERVING PEOPLE THEY TRULY ARE. I IMAGINE THIS FILLS YOU WITH GREAT PRIDE AS IT SHOULD, AGAIN, MYSELF, RUSH LIMBAUGH, CHRISTIANS, CONSERVATIVES, AND OUR NATION, OWES YOU AND ALL HATE FILLED LIBERALS A SHINING DEBT OF GRATITUDE. LONG LIVE THE LEFT WING LIBERALS OF AMERICA WITHOUT YOU SO MANY POTENTIAL CONSERVATIVES MAY JUST LOSE THEIR WAY.

In the immortal words of Princess Leg Organic from a message in that cute little droid ACDC:
"Please help me Onlywon Kanknowme you are my only hope." from your padowan to my greatest teacher, you travis are my only hope.....hugz and kisses!
PEACE to all goodnight and GOD BLESS.
Mondo,

Ditto and WELL SAID! I don't have much to add, that was beautiful man!

The only thing I really need to add is I guess it is ok to hate if you're an arab muslim or a liberal? It is ok to saw Nick Berg's head off? Well NIck Berg WAS an American so I guess that was fair. The arabs have every right to hate us?

It is perfectly fine that our tax money in this country PAYS for the crucifix to be put into a bottle of urine, but a couple of STUPID Americans do a hair brained thing and you're fit to be tied.

Why is your point about your wife being a commie so absurd, but it is perfectly ok for the Arabs to kill, Christians, Jews etc.? So what you are saying is "oh, well they are just Americans kill 'em." I never realized just how much you hate this county, but you have shown you true colors with that last "ass" posts. You are gleeful if American looks bad, and you don't even seem to mind if Americans die as long as it isn't terrorists, and as long as you can reside here in America reaping the benefits.

I never said to nuke ALL arabs! That is your pathetic fabrication.

I feel like Mondo, I came on this board to express my ideas and be exposed to what the left really thinks, now you have pushed me even farther to the right.
“THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH TRAVIS. I REALLY HAVE TO THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. YOUR DESIRE TO TEACH ME HAS BEEN FULFILLED.”

Um, your welcome? You are funny dude. I like your sense of humor.
"HERE'S A QUESTION TRAVIS, DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY CHRISTIAN SYMBOLS OF FAITH, BIBLES, AND CROSSES ARE DESTROYED EVERY DAY IN ARAB NATIONS?...BUT I CAN SAY THAT IF MUSLIMS ARE OFFENDED BY ONE OR TWO AMARICANS STEPPING ON THE QURAN, THEY SHOULD ALSO BE OFFENDED BY THE DESTRUCTIN OF CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH WRIGHTINGS AND RELICS, SINDE AFTER ALL THEY AGREE THAT BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTIMENT ARE THE WORD OF GOD AND THAT JESUS WAS A HOLY MAN AND PROPHIT."

Sigh, Red herring Mondo. Red herring. The majority of your posting is red herrings. I suspected you would, so I pasted this quote, which you ignored:

"WHEN WE ARE REDUCED TO INSISTING THAT OUR DEPRAVITY ISN'T AS BAD AS THE OTHER GUY'S, WE HAVE FALLEN DEEP INTO A PIT OF MORAL EQUIVALENCE THAT REVEALS WHAT WE HAVE LOST."

--Their Humiliation, and Ours The U.S. was forced to see itself as the world does — and it was painful to behold

Time magazine Monday, May. 17, 2004

"I AM NOT CONDONING SUCH ACTIONS"

Ummm, yes you are. There is a wonderful, terrible history of people of all races, cultures, and nations justifying their brutalities and inhumanity just like you do.
"WE ALL KNOW THAT THOSE EXTREMISTS ARE LOOKING FOR ANYREASON TO HATE US, IF ITS NOT OUR MILITARY ITS THE WAY OUR WOMEN DRESS. WE ALL KNOW IT'S ALL REALLY ABOUT ISRAEL LET'S STOP KIDDING OURSELVES INTO PRETENDING OTHERWISE. "

Umm no, "We all know that those extremists are looking for any reason to hate us"

Read the pentagon report mondo.
Kerry doesn’t care, cause they are all terrorists anyway, but maybe you do.
SEcond (continued)

"ITS GREAT TO SEE YOU FIND SUCH JOY IN A STORY ABOUT A MINISCULE OFFENCE AND STRIVE TO TAKE THE ACTIONS OF ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT OF AMERICAN PRISON OFFICIALS AND TRY AND PAINT THE WHOLE NATION AS SHAMEFUL AND DISGUSTING....SO GLOAT WHILE YOU CAN AND FEEL PROUD THAT YOU CAN POST SO MANY NEWS ARTICLES STATING THE SAME MUMBO-JUMBO THAT WAS RELEASED WEEKS AGO BY THE PENTAGON. THAT IS HOW I WILL "TWIST" THIS STORY TO FIT MY BELIEFS HOTSHOT"

Mondo, you know there is more to my shame than kicking a koran. I don't find any joy in anything in this entire war, on both sides.

I am just deeply sad and bitter that what I said is coming true, and regardless, you two are always going to justify how horribly wrong you are, no matter how many dead, no matter how many lies.
"SO YOU CAN SIDE WITH THOSE THAT HATE US AND FIND JOY WHEN WE ARE "SHAMED"

Simplistic reasoning Mondo, this isn't Star Wars, where the bad guys wear black and the good guys wear white. In this real world, the good guys invade or intervene in thirty-five poor countries, thirty five, and almost always install dictatorships. The good guys lie a lot. They have a shameful history of lies to push a public into war. They have killed millions of people, mostly civilians. This is not Star Wars Mondo.

I can write a really nasty web blog about how shitty the Iraqis are, and you and Kerry would gush in praise, but when it comes to analyzing your own beliefs, you are so incredibly defensive to the point of absurdity.

But you are in good company, unfortunatly most Americans are like this, in fact most cultures have some of this dangerous religious pride, but few, in my experience, as strong as the US.

"I WILL STILL CONTRIBUTE TO WHAT PEACEFUL CAUSES I CAN AROUND THE WORLD AND TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THOSE NATIONS THAT HATE AND ENVY US."

Ummm how? By encouraging wars of aggression based on lies? By being the stereotypical American that so many people despise?

"LET'S SEE WHO GETS A BETTER FEELING WHEN THEY WAKE UP IN THE MORNING SHALL WE."

Ahh, are we talking about that warm fuzzy spirit of Jesus that has misguided you into supporting the war, because god is on our side? Warm fuzzy feelings prove nothing Mondo. I had warm fuzzy feelings for years preaching Mormonism as a missionary, and Mormonism, based on my research is a fraud. People in Mormonism use your same justifications as you do to justify their beliefs. I am sure Muslims have the same warm fuzzy feelings as they preach hatred and anger at America. The history of religion are full of people who persecuted others based on their warm fuzzy feelings. Many wars started for the same reasons, and many gullible people died for power and land.

KERRY WROTE:
“WHY IS YOUR POINT ABOUT YOUR WIFE BEING A COMMIE SO ABSURD, BUT IT IS PERFECTLY OK FOR THE ARABS TO KILL, CHRISTIANS, JEWS ETC.? SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS "OH, WELL THEY ARE JUST AMERICANS KILL 'EM." I NEVER REALIZED JUST HOW MUCH YOU HATE THIS COUNTY, BUT YOU HAVE SHOWN YOU TRUE COLORS WITH THAT LAST "ASS" POSTS. YOU ARE GLEEFUL IF AMERICAN LOOKS BAD, AND YOU DON'T EVEN SEEM TO MIND IF AMERICANS DIE AS LONG AS IT ISN'T TERRORISTS, AND AS LONG AS YOU CAN RESIDE HERE IN AMERICA REAPING THE BENEFITS.”

I have never said that an entire group of people, an entire nation, men, women, and children were terrorists. That award goes to you Kerry. It is so funny, you can’t admit that you were stupid to say such a thing, because you can never admit you are wrong, so I will dog you with that quote until the very day you die. HA HA

Keep putting slander in my mouth, since the facts and your favorite war is going against you. The more I corner you, the more absurd and funny your statements become.

“I NEVER SAID TO NUKE ALL ARABS! THAT IS YOUR PATHETIC FABRICATION.”
No, you didn’t you said:

“Most of those Iraqi Civilians are not the innocent, they are terrorists."

“I really could give a crap less way they hate us”

Really sucks when people put words in your mouth. I don’t need to put words in your mouth with these two gems.

“I FEEL LIKE MONDO, I CAME ON THIS BOARD TO EXPRESS MY IDEAS AND BE EXPOSED TO WHAT THE LEFT REALLY THINKS, NOW YOU HAVE PUSHED ME EVEN FARTHER TO THE RIGHT.”

Lets be honest folks—there is only one direction for you too—rightward. But there is no point arguing this, either way. Maybe if I would have cuddled both of you you would have become liberal (oh the thought is SOOO funny) Mondo has found Jesus to confirm his beliefs—going ever rightward.
Red herring arguments? HEH. That is ssoooooo typical. Well I see you're on another emotional hate mongering tirade.

I am not ashamed to say I HATE TERRORISTS! I DO. HAVE YOU seen what they do to people? You are the one that conceived the thought that I want to kill all Iraqi civilians, notice those are not my words. I never said that YOU DID!

But then again you continually justify the hate that the arabs have for us excusing their behavior. You justify all the people who have died on 9/11.. They are just American's right Trav? They deserve to die, right Trav? YOu have self admitted to hate this country, and christians, and jews.

MOst of the insurgents belong to terrorists groups, duh!

I love how you just assume that all your "ass" sources are correct, and we are the ones being lied to. You are a hypocrite in every sense of the word.

Yeah were headed "rightward" hence the word right.
At least we don't bag on this country, are gleeful when one soldier does something stupid, and at the same time reap in all this countries benefits.
"Keep putting slander in my mouth, since the facts and your favorite war is going against you. The more I corner you, the more absurd and funny your statements become.

Right back aT YOU!"

"I have never said that an entire group of people, an entire nation, men, women, and children were terrorists. That award goes to you Kerry. It is so funny, you can’t admit that you were stupid to say such a thing, because you can never admit you are wrong, so I will dog you with that quote until the very day you die. HA HA "

I never said that an entire group of people should die! LIAR! I said terrorists. Do you know what a terrorist is? They are thugs that kill people. BUT YOU DID! You said you hate americans! ISn't that a whole group of people?

I guess you feel great waking up in America don't you Trav? ALL WARM AND COZY IN AMERICA?
This one id for you Trav:

http://www.latimes.com/news...
I think this qualifies as an "ass" source. Oh but how cna that be????? I mena all the "ass" sources said there wern't any? HMMMM???
“YOU ARE THE ONE THAT CONCEIVED THE THOUGHT THAT I WANT TO KILL ALL IRAQI CIVILIANS, NOTICE THOSE ARE NOT MY WORDS. I NEVER SAID THAT YOU DID!”

Yes, I know, I said that. It is called a slippery slope, an illogical conclusion.

I was making fun of you using a slippery slope, and drawing your words to the next conclusion.

I was trying to point out how absurd your quote was:

“MOST OF THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE INNOCENT, THEY ARE TERRORISTS."

As I wrote before in response to you (your words are in CAPS, my words are in sentence case):

>“I NEVER SAID TO NUKE ALL ARABS! THAT IS YOUR PATHETIC FABRICATION.”

>“No, you didn’t you said:

>“MOST OF THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE INNOCENT, THEY ARE TERRORISTS."

>“I REALLY COULD GIVE A CRAP LESS WAY THEY HATE US”

>Really sucks when people put words in your mouth. I don’t need to put words in your mouth with these two gems.”

(Case in point:

BUT THEN AGAIN YOU CONTINUALLY JUSTIFY THE HATE THAT THE ARABS HAVE FOR US EXCUSING THEIR BEHAVIOR. YOU JUSTIFY ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED ON 9/11.. THEY ARE JUST AMERICAN'S RIGHT TRAV? THEY DESERVE TO DIE, RIGHT TRAV? YOU HAVE SELF ADMITTED TO HATE THIS COUNTRY, AND CHRISTIANS, AND JEWS.)

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth, so stop attacking me for doing the same thing.
I hate living here. And by your narrow definition I am “anti-American”. I admit that readily.
I have never said that I hate Christians or Jews. You are creating your own slippery slope.

THE HATE LABEL
You know, you two’s duet about how much I hate this and hate that is so ironic.
Here we have two people who are supporting any war that America gets into.

Mondo is using biblical scriptures to support these wars, which has killed an estimated 100,000 Iraqis.

Then we have Kerry who justifies the death of civilians, an estimated 100,000 Iraqis, by stating and I quote:

“MOST OF THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE INNOCENT, THEY ARE TERRORISTS."

So folks who is really the hate monger here? I am for peace. If there is one action in the world that represents hate, and the worst of humanity, it is war. Which you two so strongly support.

I have gone into this a million times. You two use a million simplistic ways to justify American aggression. Including illogical Red Herring tactics to justify American aggression. You both intentionally, consciously ignore America’s history of aggression. When I bring this up, you say I “hate” America. Well, if I had my way, there would have been no Iraq war. There would have been no 1,500 + American soldiers dead. I continually talk about class and the economic condition of the majority of Americans, the poor and the middle class, which recently both of you have ignored.

If there is ever such an Orwellian statement, it would you two warmongers saying that I “hate”.

There is no point arguing this because we are talking about opinion: “hate”. Every time you two warmongers say I “hate this” or “hate that”, while continually supporting aggression, I will refer you to this post.

There is no point Kerry in arguing how dangerous the world is, and how we need to continue to invade third world countries. How do we measure that danger? There is no way. Because your own “hate” of the “other” is based on fear and a medieval view of “them” and “us”. I cannot rationalize with such backwards instinctive views. So there is no point arguing this either.

“MOST OF THE INSURGENTS BELONG TO TERRORISTS GROUPS, DUH!”

You didn’t write that you wrote:
“MOST OF THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE INNOCENT, THEY ARE TERRORISTS."

I wrote:
"I have never said that an entire group of people, an entire nation, men, women, and children were terrorists. That award goes to you kerry. It is so funny, you can’t admit that you were stupid to say such a thing, because you can never admit you are wrong, so i will dog you with that quote until the very day you die. Ha ha "

I NEVER SAID THAT AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE SHOULD DIE! LIAR!

Wow, getting a little angry aren’t we.

No, “I NEVER SAID THAT AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE SHOULD DIE! LIAR”

I said that, making fun of you. See above.

I wrote:
"I have never said that an entire group of people, an entire nation, men, women, and children were terrorists.”

My apologies, I was using Kerry’s ONLY tactic, taking what a person wrote to the extreme. The correct sentence is:
"I have never said that MOST of a group of people, MOST of a nation, men, women, and children were terrorists.”

Not “entire”---go ahead and blast me about this Kerry—I guess it is OK when you do this, but you lash out and call anyone else who does the same tactic a “liar”.

Case in point: did I ever say this, anywhere?
I quote what Kerry wrote:

“THEY DESERVE TO DIE, RIGHT TRAV?
YOU HAVE SELF ADMITTED TO HATE ….CHRISTIANS, AND JEWS”
---THE LEVEL OF CONVERSATION THAT WE HAVE ALL DEVOLVED TOO---

See Kerry, this is the level of conversation that we have devolved to.

Or let’s modify this statement:
This is the level of conversation that you have dragged me down too.

You have consistently thrown around these angry labels from the very beginning against anyone who believes different than you: “liberal” “hater” “communist” “anti-American” and on, and on, and on...FROM THE BEGINNING.

As I mentioned before, your emotional rants and tirades have finally gotten me, only recently, to throw the same angry labels back at you.

How does it feel Kerry?

A person can only be called so many names for so long, before they strike back.

Naum has started to delete your comments, your name calling has gotten so bad, this in reaction to my finally devolving to your level emotional irrational level of name calling.


This is what you said:

“MOST OF THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE INNOCENT, THEY ARE TERRORISTS."

I quote:

“MOST OF THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE INNOCENT, THEY ARE TERRORISTS."

QUESTION 1:
So Kerry, what percentage of Iraqi civilians are terrorists?
>>>>>>>>GIVE ME A PERCENTAGE

I will continue to ask this question until I get an answer.

This is the beginning.

I am going to make you look like a complete irrational ideologue once again.

Just like I did with the “Only people who hate America ask why Arabs hate us” logic of yours.
---------REFRAINING FROM RED HERRINGS---------

"YOU SAID YOU HATE AMERICANS! ISN'T THAT A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE?"

Yes, it is.

By saying that "I hate Americans" is a broad generalization. I often say broad generalizations to explain complex feelings and emotions. There are many caveats about this statment. There is much that I like about Americans, which I have expressed to you all before. There is a lot that I like about America, which I have also explained before.

I will not use a red herring here, as much as I want to.

Sieze on this admission Kerry, use it for everything it is worth. Call me a hypocrite to deflect your own hypocricy. Go on the attack.

Use irrational logic, never admit you are wrong, but at the same time, use other people's statments against them when they admit they are wrong.

--------PAINTING YOUSELF INTO A CORNER---------

Problem is with never admitting your own faults, your own incorrect statements, I am at a huge debating advantage.

You continue to paint yourself in a corner.

For example:

So Kerry, according to yourself, everyone who wants to know why people hate Americans are "anti-American" and "hate" America?

Is that true or false?

(I will not dig up the exact quote right now, but that is basically what you said Kerry--argue with me on the quote, and I will find it.)

--------ACRONYM------

Don't you see that you prove my point by using my A.A.S. acronym?

---------QUESTION 1:------------

So Kerry, what percentage of Iraqi civilians are terrorists?

>>>>>>>>GIVE ME A PERCENTAGE
Kerry,
Be careful how you answer this question:

So Kerry, what percentage of Iraqi civilians are terrorists?

>>>>>>>>GIVE ME A PERCENTAGE

I have a whole host of more questions lined up.

You can either:

a) Admit that you were wrong that "most" Iraqis are not terrorists.

b) Give me a percentage.

c) Ignore the question, in which case I will continue to ask

d) Say that you are not sure what percentage are terrorists, but it is "most"

Please let me know if there are more than these four options.

See, I am already reducing you to four options, slowly painting you into that corner. Just like I did with the “Only people who hate America ask why Arabs hate us” logic of yours.

Your rigid ideology makes you inflexible, and it creates a huge achiles heel for me to exploit.

Wouldn't it be easier to just admit that the statment was wrong, it was an emotional reaction, to postings on this blog?
RE:

I wrote:

"See Kerry, this is the level of conversation that we have devolved to.

Or let’s modify this statement:
This is the level of conversation that you have dragged me down too.

You have consistently thrown around these angry labels from the very beginning against anyone who believes different than you: “liberal” “hater” “communist” “anti-American” and on, and on, and on...FROM THE BEGINNING.

As I mentioned before, your emotional rants and tirades have finally gotten me, only recently, to throw the same angry labels back at you."

I went back to Joe Republican and I was throwing labels around too....quite visiously I might add, my mistake....
YOU called yourself an ANTI AMERICAN! NOT ME!

THEN you say that I am labeling you?
"So Kerry, what percentage of Iraqi civilians are terrorists? "

I don't know TrAV, why don't you go over there and take a poll!
WHAT DON'T YOU GIVE ME A PERCENTAGE Of INSURGENTS THAT AREN'T TERRORISTS-??
You are ridiculous Trav you continually deny that there any any such things as terrorist. Who sawed off Nick Berg's head? Mr. Rogers????? I wasn't talking about Iraqi civilians,
but INSURGENTS!


You called YOURSELF AN "ASS"! YOU ADMITTED IT! If that is what you are THAT is what you are? You are the one who talks about how horrible Americans are every five seconds.

"By saying that "I hate Americans" is a broad generalization. I often say broad generalizations to explain complex feelings and emotions. There are many caveats about this statement. There is much that I like about Americans, which I have expressed to you all before. There is a lot that I like about America, which I have also explained before."

Another full of crap statement by Trav ! Congrats, what does this make? I million?? 2 BILLION? You obviously don't like this country which leads me to my question that you have NEVER ANSWERED! WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL HERE??
o folks who is really the hate monger here? I am for peace. If there is one action in the world that represents hate, and the worst of humanity, it is war. Which you two so strongly support.

You are fooling yourself Trav. You are for Peace. That is funny! You are happy when Americans die because (we deserve it) and you are for peace? LOL! That's a good GOOOD ONE!

"Naum has started to delete your comments, your name calling has gotten so bad, this in reaction to my finally devolving to your level emotional irrational level of name calling. "

I guess it doesn't count when you call Mondo, Neocon, and I simplistic idiots, irrational; racist, can't believe you're a teacher etc. or compare Neocon or Al queda. Because in your small little mind Trav, that is ok, because you are so unbelievably hypocritical! Those names don't count right? Oh and the things he deleted had no name calling in them. Naum was deleting Mondo's statements as well. Gee I wonder why?? Hmm.....

Trav, your problem is you compete with the sun for the center of the universe! Admit it, you turned on God because you can't stand that there might be a higher being than yourself!
Oh yeah, I wasn't angry at all. You amke me laugh my ass off as usual.
I have decide today to collect personal attacks on me, and lies that I have never once said:

LIES THAT I HAVE NEVER SAID:
1) You are ridiculous Trav you continually deny that there any any such things as terrorist.
2) You are happy when Americans die because (we deserve it)
3) can't believe you're a teacher etc. [that was Naum]
4) You are the one who talks about how horrible Americans are every five seconds.

PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ME:
1) You called YOURSELF AN "ASS"!
2) Because in your small little mind

Qustions that I started to answer and Kerry called "boring" so I wont share my feelings any longer about this subject (it is none of your business):

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL HERE??

QUESTION 1:
So Kerry, what percentage of Iraqi civilians are terrorists?

>>>>>>>>GIVE ME A PERCENTAGE

You said "Iraqi civilans", not "INSURGENTS". You said "most" Iraqi civilians are terrorists. A few weeks later is a little late to change your statment. Are you admitting you were wrong? (option a)

QUESTION 2:
So Kerry, according to yourself, everyone who wants to know why people hate Americans are "anti-American" and "hate" America?

Is that true or false?

Maybe if I collect enough nasty statments, Naum will ban your sorry ass ;-) This is well passed having an "open mind".

I look at my past conversations with Naum, and with Neocon, and with Mondo, and although I am aggressive I don't hold a candle to your nasty comments. I think Naum saw this. Hell, if you argue this, we can count all of your bitter angry comments, if you so desire.

"Gee I wonder why?? Hmm..... "

It is because he is a "liberal" right? Not because you are a stubborn, irrational, emotional woman. It is everyone elses fault, everyone else is always wrong, never Kerry.
Trav,

Couldn't I do the same? I guess if you consider personal attacks when you call yourself something and then complain that it is a personal attack is really kind of scary.
I think asking why you are still in a country that you complain about so much is a legitimate question.
Did you ever hear the phrase, "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen?" Harry Truman said it, do you think anyone ever accused him of personal attacking them?

Couldn't I say that you are personally attacking me every-time you say I am simpisltic, idiotic, emotional woman? Isn't that a bit sexist Trav? I must be an irrational and emotional so I must be a woman? Are woman all emotional Trav? Is that how you see woman? Who is being emotional here? Besides who is acting like the stereotypical "woman"? I am not compaling about it, YOU are!

WAS it a personal attack when You compared Neocon to Al Queda? Or criticize Mondo and I for being Christians and have warm fuzzy feelings? Or that you will
"dog" me with a statement till the day I die. You know what Trav? I don't really care what you say to me or about me. This is a forum and all is fair in arguing here, but don't come on here with all this ridiculous rules. They are YOUR rules not mine. What are you going to do when you are a lawyer run screaming from the court room when things get tough?

I know what you tactics are, you pull your red herring, Ad Hominum , and now everything is a personal attack? You don't answer any of my questions. So is part of Trav's little rules that we have to answer all of your questions, but you ignore ours?

So what percentages aren't insurgents?

You YOURSELF called yourself an anti american I never said that anyone who wants to know why People hate america hate americans.

"It is because he is a "liberal" right? Not because you are a stubborn, irrational, emotional woman. It is everyone else's fault, everyone else is always wrong, never Kerry."

Oh my, is that a personal attack Trav? It has nothing to do with Naum being liberal.

Do you want me ban because you can't handle me and your life would be easier? You lost the arguments so you are going to tattle? Wasn't it you the other day that apologized to me because you were being to nasty?

You have a choice on whether or not you come on this board or not, and now you want to censor me? I thought you are against censorship? I make a choice when I come on this board I have been attacked, haven't we all? I can take it, I even think it's funny! Remeber the other day I told you you take this way to seriously. Ligten up buttercup.:)

If Naum wants to ban me than that is his decision, but I thought you guys were against Nazi regimes, I thought you were for free speech? :).
TALK ABOUT "TWISTING" THINGS...

""I AM NOT CONDONING SUCH ACTIONS"

Ummm, yes you are."

UMMMMMMMMMM NO I AM NOT, MY POINT IS THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD WHEN IT COMES TO PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF AMERICA, CHRISTIANS ISRAEL, JEWS AND MUSLIMS. THIS YOU CANNOT DENY. WHERE IS ALL THE MORAL OUTRAGE WHEN MUSLIMS KILL CHRISTIANS? WHERE IS ALL THE MORAL OUTRAGE WHEN "PALASTINIANS" BLOW THEMSELVES UP AND TAKE OUT A PIZZA PARLOR IN GAZA? WHERE IS ALL THE MORAL OUTRAGE WHEN P.O.W.S ARE STILL BEING HELD IN VIETNAM AND CHINA, OR EVEN RUSSIA (WHICH MANY OF AMERICAN VETERANS STILL BELIEVE THAT)?WHERE IS THE AOUTRAGE WHEN AMERICANS OR OUR ALLIES ARE BEHEADED FOR SPORT AND BROADCAST ALL OVER THE WORLD BY THOSE EXTREMISTS WHO JOIN YOU IN THE HATRED OF AMERICA?

"trav1bailey wrote:
Naum,
Is it possible to change my handle that I entered?

I dont want future employees to type "trav1bailey" from my email, and the first thing to come up is this conversation.
Posted on 05/12/05 at 08:33"

"trav1bailey wrote:
Hey Naum,
Glad you joined the argument.

Kerrysucks vs me, with mondomo adding a biblibal scripture occasionally. (you really have changed mondo--amazing to watch)

What I was askign Naum, if there was anyway to change my handle. I typed in my old handle in google, and the iraq war article came up very first. I have one internship and am awaiting on two more internships and a job. Any employer could type in my yahoo name trav1bailey and up comes my anti-american tirade. Not good. Like Kerry I want to keep my real life and virtual life seperate, unlike Kerry, I was stupid and I posted trav1bailey, which happens to be my yahoo address too.

If I registered could I modify anything? I have tried to register but with no success.
Posted on 05/13/05 at 11:46 "
"Here's my Veterans Day Message to you. I wish you and your's the very best. We are now at war, so let's all
remember the price the Veteran pays to be who he is. Let us all support our Troops, and honor our Veterans.
Webmaster Note: Although the text by the unknown author was written in masculine verbiage, we all know "He" is also "She."
"He's A Veteran!"

He's a man who looks the world in the eye. He's a man who feels an extra heart-tug when the flag goes by. He's a man who steps a little faster when he hears the beat of a military band. He's a Veteran.

He comes in all assorted sizes and shapes. He's a big man, he's a small man...he's a short man, he's a tall man. He is the "Doughboy" of World War I...the "GI" of World War II... He's a man who's seen Korean skies, fought the cold and silent battle of uneasy Berlin....and braved the booby traps and ambushes of Ia Drang Valley in Viet Nam. He's a Veteran.

He's a sailor....soldier...Marine. He's a flyer...seabee...coast guard. He's artillery...infantry..medic...aviation machinist
mate....armored and ordnance.. He's a Veteran.
He has the quiet dignity of a man who knows the pride of freedom ...He has the clear eyes of a man who respects himself. He is courage living on Main Street. He is patriotism mowing the lawn on Saturday afternoon. He is good citizenship with a smile on his face. He's a Veteran.

He is Republican, Democrat, Independent/..He is mechanic, farmer, banker... He is Catholic, Protestant, Jew... He is rich and poor and in-between. He's a Veteran
He's a man who loves peace because he knows the price tag of war. He's a member of history's most exclusive fraternity. He knows that war is ninety percent boredom and ten percent sheer terror. He's been there. He's a Veteran.

He likes the majesty of America's mountains...the tranquility of America's valleys. He likes the bustle of America's cities and the friendliness of America's Main Streets. He likes the sound of America's children playing on the American playgrounds. He likes to watch the flag go by... He feels a bit sad when he hears the sound of an American bugler
playing "Taps". He is a citizen soldier...Peacetime leader... He's the first to volunteer in time of trouble...and the last to come home. He's a Veteran.

He is proud of his American past...alert to his American present...confident of his American future. He likes the legends of America's greats...the Washingtons...the Jeffersons...the Abraham Lincolns...the Roosevelts...the Robert E. Lees....The Stonewall Jacksons...the Pattons...the Eisenhowers...the MacArthurs...the Nimitzs....the Pullers....the Dalys and all the proud patriots who have marched through America's history books. He's a Veteran.

He has bivouacked at Valley Forge...charged the hill at Gettysburg...stormed the sands at Guadalcanal...swarmed ashore at Omaha Beach..advanced on Pork Chop Hill and fought in the bunker complex in War Zone "C" in Southeast Asia. He parachuted into Grenada. He stood watch in Beirut. He fought in the streets of Panama and served in the Middle East in support of "Operation Desert Shield". He's a Veteran.

In the very rear of his secret heart there is always a tinge of sorrow, a souvenir of sadness for lost and departed comrades. No matter how gray his temples grow or how many inches he adds to his middle-aged waist, he always walks with a distinctive pride that isn't given to lesser men. He is America with an honorable discharge... He is Democracy with a Good Conduct Medal lost in the darkness of his keepsake box... He is freedom with a Purple Heart. He is a first class fighting man with a quiet walk and sentimental grin. He's America's most honorable citizen He's a Veteran."

Author Unknown"

"THE GIANT SLEEPS NO MORE

Where are all the liberals, who sang lullabies at the feet-- Of the great and mighty Giant, until he fell asleep?

Where are all the bleeding hearts that whispered in his ear -- And disarmed the brave, strong Giant by taking away his fear?

Where are they that confused the Giant by blowing smoke into his eyes-- Who suppressed the Giant's common sense and replaced it with their lies.

Where are all the traitors who, once he was asleep, Invited in the wolves and cried, "they are only sheep?"

Wherever they are, the infidels' let them hide for their own sake, American can take no more, now the Giant is awake.

So let the snakes bide their time as they lie in the grass and wait, For America to forget again and again to seal her fate.

Steve"
"DONALD H. RUMSFELD'S PRAYER

[Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's prayer opening the Cabinet meeting at the White House after the September 11th attacks:]

Ever faithful God, in death we are reminded of the precious birthrights of life and liberty you endowed in your American people. You have shown once again that these gifts must never be taken for granted.

We pledge to those whom you have called home, and ask of you -- Patience, to measure our lust for action; Resolve, to strengthen our obligation to lead; Wisdom, to illuminate our pursuit of justice, and; Strength, in defense of liberty.

We seek your special blessing today for those who stand as sword and shield, protecting the many from the tyranny of the few. Our enduring prayer is that you shall always guide our labors and that our battles shall always be just.

We pray this day, Heavenly Father, the prayer our nation learned at another time of righteous struggle and noble cause -- America's enduring prayer: Not that God will be on our side, but always, O Lord, that America will be on your side. Amen."

"IF I KNEW

If I knew it would be the last time that I'd see you fall asleep, I would tuck you in more tightly and pray the Lord, your soul to keep.

If I knew it would be the last time that I see you walk out the door, I would give you a hug and kiss and call you back for one more.

If I knew it would be the last time I'd hear your voice lifted up in praise, I would video tape each action and word,so I could play them back day after day.

If I knew it would be the last time, I could spare an extra minute to stop and say "I love you," instead of assuming you would KNOW I do.

If I knew it would be the last time I would be there to share your day, well I'm sure you'll have so many more, so I can let just this one slip away.

For surely there's always tomorrow to make up for an oversight, and we always get a second chance to make everything just right.

There will always be another day to say "I love you," And certainly there's another chance to say our "Anything I can do?"

But just in case I might be wrong, and today is all I get, I'd like to say how much I love you and I hope we never forget.

Tomorrow is not promised to anyone,young or old alike, And today may be the last chance you get to hold your loved one tight.

So if you're waiting for tomorrow, why not do it today? For if tomorrow never comes,you will surely regret the day,

That you didn't take that extra time for a smile, a hug, or a kiss and you were too busy to grant someone, what turned out to be their one last wish.

So hold your loved ones close today, and whisper in their ear, Tell them how much you love them and that you'll always hold them dear

Take time to say "I'm sorry," "Please forgive me," Thank you," Or "It's okay." And if tomorrow never comes, you will have no regrets about today."
"OUT of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be, For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance, My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears, Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.

By William Ernest Henley. 18491903

May God light your way and show you through the darkness"

"As much as I dislike McCain, he makes a good point....

Sen. John McCain, on the terrorists: "God may forgive you; we will not."

Paul Schafer"
This from a Canadian newspaper is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Wide spread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional

Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for theAmericans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.Germany Japan and to a lesser extentBritain an Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956 it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet the Lockheed Tri-Star or the Douglas DC10? If so why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon - not once but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets and most of them unless they are breaking Canadian laws are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France Germany and India were breaking down through age it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud America!
"Great Powerful Piece by L. Pitts addressed to terrorists
Wed Sep 12 08:40:41 2001
They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and cultural issues to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes the only thing I can find to say the only words that seem to fit must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center our Pentagon us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was know that you failed. Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned it.Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family a family rent by racial cultural political and class division but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous yes capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress a ball team's misfortune a cartoon mouse.

We're wealthy too spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods and maybe because of that we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent though peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are the overwhelming majority of us people of faith believers in a just and loving God.

Some people -- you perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.

Yes we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster isn't the plot from a Tom Clancy novel.

Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the probable final death toll your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and indeed the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last timeanyone hit us this hard the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused we are righteous in our outrage terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism we will bear any suffering pay any cost go to any length in the pursuit of justice.

I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people as you do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In days to come there will be recrimination and accusation fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms.

We'll go forward from this moment sobered chastened sad. But determined too. Unimaginably determined.There is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by those who don't know us well. On this day the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep as Americans we will mourn and as Americans we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

Still I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us. It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started. But you're about to learn."

"The terrorists have chosen to bring Islam to a new meaning:

I SLAM! I Slam shut the world's opinion on our matters. I Slam the door to truth and freedom. I Slam the idea that the East is backward and barbaric. I Slam those that would take my oil wealth and distribute it to schools for our children and their future. I Slam the thought that people cannot be controlled with hunger and fear. And...last of all here, but first in the hearts of my believers, I SLAM planes, boats, trucks, buildings and people into ALLAH's hands. From here on, Islam is the religion of terror, death, and deception. And, it is called I SLAM.......

Mike from South Bend, In"

"Elizabeth Broussard
"Yesterday is not ours to recover, but tomorrow is ours to win or lose.""
"A MIRACLE AMERICA

The morning sun is golden, In the evergreen trees
Like Freedom,s sacred flame, On the Statue of Liberty
The landing of the Pilgrims, On our verdant shores
It's still the hope of many, To open freedom's door

Have you seen, The light of freedom
It's there for everyone, High above the harbor
Bound by no horizon, A Miracle America
The dream lives on and on

The Gateway Arch is shining, Afternoons on the plains
We're grateful to be sharing, In this harvest of choice grain
The prairie schooners ventured, Through the unknown terrains
And in the hearts of many, A pioneer spirit remains

And towards a glowing promise, They headed to the West
Past the shadows of Grand Canyon, How noble was their quest
Beyond these earthly boundaries, To leave footprints in moon dust
We can take those giant leaps,Cause it's In God We Trust

The California gold rush, In Forty eight and nine
And the last gleaming spike, Driven in the railway line
The Golden Gate at sunset,Black and yellow red and white
Every race will turn to gold, As we face the amber light

Have you seen, The light of freedom
It's there for everyone, High above the harbor
Bound by no horizon, A Miracle America
The dream lives on and on, A Miracle America, The dream lives on and on

© 1999 Stefan des Lauriers <stefan@musickingdom.com"

"The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work
in order to survive.

-- Thomas Sowell"
""What if there were no U.S.A.?"

It's a Wonderful America

Over the years I have watched the anger and bitterness expressed against our nation by many detractors around the world. Like many Americans, I have wondered how things would be if we weren't the target of the world's hate.

The Jimmy Stewart film, "It's A Wonderful Life," posits an interesting situation that relates to my feelings. In the film, Stewart is presented with a challenging opportunity---an angel allows him to see the world as it would have been without his presence. The concept of the film prompted me to ask a similar question: "What would have happened if America had never existed?"

If America had never existed, the world would be a much different place. The world would be missing many things it deems as necessities. In the area of science and invention there would be no television, radio, telephones, electric lights, motion pictures, computers, airplanes, steamboats, spaceships, washing machines, microwaves, and air conditioning.

The medical field would be a black hole. There would be no penicillin, antibiotics, medicines of all kinds, medical procedures now considered common-place, blood plasma, transfusions, anesthetics, and medical machines that are irreplaceable.

In the world of agriculture and food production there would be no special seeds, miracle crops, systems of animal husbandry, food processing, tin cans for preservation, and refrigeration.

In the area of government there would be no democracies, no freedom, no civil rights, no voting, no courts, no care about right and wrong. Without America, Nazi Germany would have won the war, Japan would be ruling in Asia, England and France would no longer exist, and a hundred new countries would be missing from the world map.

Without America, Europe and the world would have starved and communism would have eventually engulfed the earth.

Without America, there would be no Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Mark Twain, Billy Graham, Thomas Edison, Martin Luther King, Clara Barton, and other great men and women who have blessed the earth.

Without America, countries that experience earthquakes, famines, and natural disasters of all kinds would be on their own, for there would be no Americans flying food, clothing, blankets, medical supplies and bags of money into those needy countries. Without America, there would be very few missionaries, no hospitals in jungles and deserts, few churches, no foreign aid or food programs, and no giving.

Yes, without America there would be no one to blame, no one to curse, and the world's people would be sitting in their mud huts contemplating the darkness.
Robert Allan
"
"Different perspective...Editorial from a Romanian newspaper

Why are Americans so united? They don't resemble one another even if you paint them! They speak all the languages of the world and form an astonishing mixture of civilizations. Some of them are nearly extinct, others are incompatible with one another, and in matters of religious beliefs, not even God can count how many they are.

Still, the American tragedy turned three hundred million people into a hand put on the heart. Nobody rushed to accuse the White House, the army, the secret services that they are only a bunch of losers. Nobody rushed to empty their bank accounts. Nobody rushed on the streets nearby to gape about.

The Americans volunteered to donate blood and to give a helping hand. After the first moments of panic, they raised the flag on the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts, caps and ties in the colors of the national flag. They placed flags on buildings and cars as if in every place and on every car a minister or the president was passing. On every occasion they started singing their traditional song: "God Bless America!".

Silent as a rock, I watched the charity concert broadcast on Saturday once, twice, three times, on different TV channels. There were Clint Eastwood,Willie Nelson, Robert de Niro, Julia Roberts, Cassius Clay, Jack Nicholson, Bruce Springsteen, Silvester Stalone, James Wood, and many
others whom no film or producers could ever bring together.

The American's solidarity spirit turned them into a choir. Actually, choir is not the word. What you could hear was the heavy artillery of the American soul. What neither George W. Bush, nor Bill Clinton, nor Colin Powell could say without facing the risk of stumbling over words and sounds, was being heard in a great and unmistakable way in this charity concert.

I don't know how it happened that all this obsessive singing of America didn't sound croaky, nationalist, or ostentatious! It made you green with envy because you weren't able to sing for your country without running the risk of being considered chauvinist, ridiculous, or suspected of who-knows-what mean interests.

I watched the live broadcast and the rerun of its rerun for hours, listening to the story of the guy who went down one hundred floors with a woman in a wheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the Californian hockey player, who fought with the terrorists and prevented the plane from hitting a target that would have killed other hundreds or thousands of people. How on earth were they able to bow before a fellow human?

Imperceptibly, with every word and musical note, the memory of some turned into a modern myth of tragic heroes. And with every phone call, millionsn and millions of dollars were put in a collection aimed at rewarding not a man or a family, but a spirit which nothing can buy.What on earth can unite the Americans in such a way? Their land? Their galloping history? Their economic power? Money? I tried for hours to find an answer, humming songs and murmuring phrases which risk of sounding like
commonplaces. I thought things over, but I reached only one conclusion.

Only freedom can work such miracles!"
"Kathy's Prayer

"IN GOD WE TRUST"
Dear God,

We are grateful for this great country and those who came before us who worked and fought and died to make this truly the land of the free and the home of the brave. We are grateful to live these wonderful lives as Americans. This
week we learned how swiftly and easily this life can be lost.

We pray for our fellow Americans who were taken from us and for those who loved them who were left behind to bear the unbearable.We pray for those brave people who have and continue to work tirelessly in the rescue and recovery of the innocent victims of this unthinkable crime.

We pray for the leaders of this great country and all the leaders of the free world to know the steps to take to combat this evil and to do your will to bring justice to this world.

And, most importantly, we pray for our children and grandchildren and those that come after that they may always live free and
someday know a world at peace.

Dear God, please guide and protect our sons and daughters in our armed forces.

Bless this world and, please God, Bless America."
A Breath Prayer for Fear - By Roberta Porter in Alive Now, n/d, '95.

"When fear invades,

pervades, paralyzes -

I remember Jesus's love and breathe a prayer.

I do not have to wait for courage;

courage is not a feeling, but a response to Spirit.

I breathe out, relinquish fear, anxiety, thank God for presence.

I breathe in, receive peace and power in Spirit

to speak,

to move, to act,

to decide,

to be

courageous."
YOU LOOK AT ALL THE SADNESS, SEE POVERTY AND PAIN.
YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE IN DARKNESS, WITH THUNDER CLOUDS AND RAIN.
YOU SAY THERE IS NO GOD AND ONLY FOOLS BELIEVE.
TO YOU THERE IS NO GIFTS OF LIFE YET YOU TAKE ALL YOU RECEIVE.
YOU BOAST AND BRAG WHEN GOOD MEN FALL, NO HUMBLE THOUGHTS YOU SHOW.
YOU CONCENTRATE ON BUILDING WALLS AND LETTING HATRED GROW.
YOU STRIVE TO TEACH AND SHOW YOU'RE RIGHT, IN ALL YOU SAY AND DO,
NOT CARING IF THE FACTS YOU SHARE ARE REALLY WHAT IS TRUE.
YOU'RE QUICK TO RISE IN ANGER AND SPEAK BEFORE YOU THINK
YOUR ONE CONCERN IS SAVING FACE, WHEN DEEPER STILL YOU SINK,
YET,STILL YOU STRUGGLE FORWARD, NOT SEEING WHERE DARKNESS LEADS,
NOR UNDERSTANDING, NOTHING GROWS WHEN IN DARKNESS REMAIN THE SEEDS.
I LOOK AT ALL THE LAUGHTER THE GIVING AND THE GIFTS.
I LIVE LIFE IN SUNSHINE, THE WIND MY SPIRIT LIFTS.
I SAY, TO LOVE YOUR BROTHER, IS GODS GIFT TO RECEIVE.
EACH MOMENT, IS A BLESSING, IS PLEASURE TO BELIEVE.
I HUMBLY STAND IN SILENCE WHEN SACRIFICE IS MADE.
I KNOW THAT PEACE CAN ONLY COME FROM THE PRICE THAT JESUS PAID.
I KNOW NOBODIES PERFECT, MOST OF ALL, NOT ME.
I KNOW SOMETIMES IM BLIND, BUT PRAY FOR STRENGTH TO SEE.
I TRY TO CALMLY UNDERSTAND WHAT MAKES YOU DWELL IN HATE.
MY TRUE CONCERN IS IN YOUR SOUL, AND WHAT MIGHT BE ITS FATE,
YET, STILL YOU STRUGGLE FORWARD, NOT SEEING WHERE DARKNESS LEADS,
NOR UNDERSTANDING, NOTHING GROWS WHEN IN DARKNESS REMAIN THE SEEDS.

YET, STILL YOU STRUGGLE FORWARD, I WATCH AS YOU GO BY, I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE HEADING, AND THAT IS WHY I CRY.
"Ummm, yes you are. There is a wonderful, terrible history of people of all races, cultures, and nations justifying their brutalities and inhumanity just like you do.
"WE ALL KNOW THAT THOSE EXTREMISTS ARE LOOKING FOR ANYREASON TO HATE US, IF ITS NOT OUR MILITARY ITS THE WAY OUR WOMEN DRESS. WE ALL KNOW IT'S ALL REALLY ABOUT ISRAEL LET'S STOP KIDDING OURSELVES INTO PRETENDING OTHERWISE. "

Umm no, "We all know that those extremists are looking for any reason to hate us"

Read the pentagon report mondo. "
"ISLAMIC TERRORISM IN AMERICA TODAY

Here are some summaries of Islamic terrorism in America or against Americans

#1) Osama bin Laden, one of the Islamic world's leading terrorists was behind the bombing of the American Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Twelve Americans were killed and there were hundreds of other deaths due to the bombings. Bin Laden has declared open season on American civilians, women and children included. He says Islamic scholars have allowed the targeting of civilians because their taxes support the American military, therefore, they too are at war with Bin Laden's Islamic goals.

Bin Laden was interviewed by a Muslim journalist, and the interview appears in the Jan 11, 1999 issue of Newsweek. Here are some excerpts:

QUESTION: "Why have you asked Muslims to target civilian Americans all over the world? Islam prohibits its followers from killing civilians in war?"

BIN LADEN: "If the Israelis are killing small children in Palestine and the Americans are killing the innocent people in Iraq, and if the majority of the American people support their dissolute president, this means the American people are fighting us and we have the right to target them.

QUESTION: "All Americans?"

BIN LADEN "Muslim scholars have issued a fatwa [a religious order] against any American who pays taxes to his government. He is our target, because he is helping the American war machine against the Muslim nation.""

"Below is an excerpt from ABC news.



ABCNEWS.com (on Osama bin Laden - edited for length)



His fatwa was clear: Americans must die, within the next few weeks.



U.S. troops will leave Saudi Arabia when Islamic terrorists "send the bodies of American troops and civilians home in wooden boxes and coffins," Osama Bin Ladin vowed in an exclusive interview with ABC NEWS Correspondent John Miller. "We don't differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians. They are all targets in this fatwa."

Bin Ladin recently convened a meeting of fundamentalist extremists and sponsors of terrorism. More than 150 clerics named themselves the "International Islamic Front for the Jihad against Jews and Crusaders," and issued a variety of fatwas. But Bin Ladin's is the one that most concerns U.S. security analysts."

http://answering-islam.org/...

HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED THAT WHEN A MUSLIM IS ASKED ABOUT THE ISLAMIC TERROR, THE FIRST JUSTIFICATION THEY EVER COME UP WITH ALWAYS IMPLICATED ISRAEL? NO MATTER WHAT OTHER REASONS THEY MAY GIVE ISRAEL IS ALWAYS FIRST AND FOREMOST ON THEIR MINDS AND IN THEIR HEARTS.
Mondo - If at all possible!!! Please make your responses a little bit shorter and to the point. It makes it easier for me to go thru your responses; otherwise, I just skip over the majority of your comments.

You are right in stating that you never said God was ok with killing. I am only trying to show you that perhaps your way of thought in regards to abortion is questionable, because your anti-abortion stand seems to come from a religious point of view which you are not following as perhaps we all should. I mean come on…..you quote the bible more than you include your very own thoughts and ideas about issues.

I noticed many of your quotas by the way come from the Old Testament. Have you even bothered to read the New Testament?? I would like to share the following with you, from the New Testament and that will be it, as far as quoting the bible is concerned from me:

CORINTHIANS 3: 12, 13
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

COLOSSIANS 3:12, 13
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

I actually like the following comment you made:
“I GUESS IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN MURDER YOU SHOULD MIND YOUR OWN BUSSINESS AND NOT BOTHER ENFORCING THE LAWS AGAINST IT?”

because it brings me to the next question. At what point does it become too much???? Where do we draw the line in terms of what you can impose on to others as the Republicans are trying to do right now in terms of a women’s right to choose???
A WOMAN DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE..... A MAN HAS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE.....PREGNANCY IS AVOIDABLE BY OTHER MEANS THAN MURDER. LIKE I STATED BEFORE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT RELIGIOUS WHO FEEL THAT ABORTION IS MURDER.... EVEN IF YOU TAKE GOD OUT OF THE MIX YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THE RIGHTS OF THE COMPLETELY INNOCENT UNBORN CHILD. WHEN SOMEONE COMMITS A CRIME THEY REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM THE WILL OF BASIC HUMAN DECENCY. THEY FORFEIT THEIR RIGHTS BY THE ACTIONS THEY TAKE THEMSELVES, THEY ARE ULTIMATELY ABLE TO MAKE A CHOICE AS TO SHOULD I STEAL THAT OR SHOULD I PULL THE TRIGGER? THE UNBORN CHILD HAS NO CHOICES NO DECISIONS NO HOPE WITHOUT THE PROMISE OF THOSE WHO CAN PROTECT HIM OR HER TO DO THAT. BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS IF YOU THINK MURDER IS WRONG AND TAKING OF LIFE IS MURDER AND ABORTION IS TAKING OF LIFE THE MOTHER HAS ALL THE RIGHTS IN THE WORLD TO MAKE AS MANY DECISIONS AS SHE WANTS UP TO THE POINT WHERE SHE BECOMES PREGNANT AFTER THAT POINT HOWEVER THERE IS ANOTHER LIFE TO CONSIDER AND TO EXTINGUISH THAT LIFE NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO RATIONALIZE IT IS MURDER. MURDER IS ILLEGAL. IF YOU ARE SO DEAD SET AGAINST THE USE OF AMERICAN FORCES IN IRAQ BECAUSE YOU FEEL THAT THE INNOCENT LIVES THAT ARE LOST ARE TO BIG A PRICE TO PAY FOR WHAT MAY MEAN THE FUTURE EXISTENCE OF NOT JUST AMERICANS BUT THE FREEDOM AND RIGHTS OF BILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD. YOU SHOULD ALSO FEEL THAT ABORTION IS TO BIG A PRICE TO PAY SIMPLY FOR A PERSON OF AGE TO CONCEIVE A CHILD TO AVOID THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THEIR ACTIONS. AND EVEN IF THAT PERSON IS NOT MATURE ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT DECISION ULTIMATELY SOMEONE ADULT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM AND THE RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH THEM TO MAKE THE CHOICE TO RAISE THAT CHILD OR GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION.

IN EVERY CHOICE WE MAKE IN LIFE THERE COMES A POINT WHERE THERE IS NO TURNING BACK, AT THAT POINT AFTER THE TRIGGER IS SQUEEZED AFTER YOU JUMP OFF THE BRIDGE AFTER YOUR TIRES LEAVE THAT RAMP WE PLACE OURSELVES OUTSIDE OWN ABILITIES TO CHANGE WHAT HAPPENES NEXT WE CAN DO WHATECVER WE LIKE AND SOMETHINGS MAY MAKE THE OUTCOME A LITTLE LESS TRAGIC BUT IN THE END YOU HAVE TO HIT THE GROUND IF YOU JUMP OFF THE BRIDGE FLAP YOUR ARMS AND SEE WHAT GOOD THAT DOES, IT'S SIMPLE TO ME, PREGNANCY IS THAT MOMENT WHEN YOUR FEET LEAVE THE SAFETY OF EARTH YOU CAN DO THINGS TO MAKE IT EASIER AND TO IMPROVE THE HEALTH OF YOU AND YOUR CHILD YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO SMOKE OR DRINK YOU CAN TAKE YOUR VITAMINS OR MEDICATION BUT THE LIFE OF THAT CHILD ULTIMATELY HANGS ON THE ACTIONS OF THAT MOTHER IT'S MORE LIKE JUMPING OFF A BRIDGE WITH A BABY IN YOUR ARMS, IT'S YOU DUTY TO MAKE SURE THE BABY HAS A SOFT PLACE TO LAND.
I THINK I AM GOING TO TAKE A BREAK FROM THIS PLACE FOR A WHILE.....IT'S HARD NOT TO COME BACK AND READ WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY OR THINK ABOUT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY OR THINK ABOUT WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE SAYS OR THINKS...BUT I THINK I WILL TRY MY BEST TO STAY AWAY FOR AWHILE...I SPEND TO MUCH TIME READING THIS CRAP AND THAT TIME CAN BETTER SERVE ME IF I PUT IT TO USE ON MORE PRODUCTIVE AGENDAS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CONCENTRATE ON THE PAST FEW MONTHS. ANYWAY I REALLY DON'T FEEL ANYTHING HAS BEEN LEFT UNSAID IF I DIDN'T ANSWER SOMETHING I CAN BET YOU CAN FIND MY OPINION ON IT SOMEWHERE ON THIS SIGHT. I AM REALLY BURNED OUT FROM ALL THE VENOM AND BICKERING AND NEED TO EXPERIENCE THE LOVE OF MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS A LITTLE MORE IN THE TIMES AHEAD.

GOOD LUCK KS I HOPE YOU DONT FEEL IM LEAVING YOU HERE TO FEND OFF THE WOLVES ON YOUR OWN, PERHAPS NEO WILL RETURN TO WATCH YOUR BACK...OR PERHAPS YOU MAY WISH TO TAKE A BREAK AS WELL AND LEAVE OTHEERS HERE TO HOPEFULLY PUT IN A WORD OR TWO THAT MIGHT COME CLOSE TO WHAT YOU WOULD SAY ANYWAY. I DO THINK THIS SIGHT WOULD PROBABLE BE ALLOT MORE BORING WITH NO DEEP HEARFELT ANTAGONISTIC CONVERSATIONS AND MAYBE AFTER A WHILE WE MAY EVEN BE MISSED IF ONLY AS A STEADY SPARRING PARTNER IN POLITICAL, MENTAL, MORAL, AND SOCIOLIOGICAL PUGILISTICS.

THANKS FOR THE QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE CAL I ACTUALLY READ A COUPLE OF THOSE FRIDAY....

GOODBYE TRAV I HOPE YOU FIND WHAT YOU ARE MISSING.

ANYWAY

I WILL LEAVE WITH JUST ONE WORD.
SELAH!
Mondo,
I agree with you, I was thinking the same thing. I think we have all gotten to the point where we all know what each other thinks and what we will each say. We have argued the same points at nauseum. We have not changed each others minds (not that we ever would have).

I feel as if we are all going in circles. I really have so much to do with the school year coming to a close, with report cards, etc. I find myself spending hours on this site responding to the same things we have been discussing since December, or even last summer.

I am not leaving, I'll be around. I just may lurk for awhile. If you have noticed I have been trying to ween myself away, Until this weekend.

I wish you the best Mondo, I hope you have a nice break. God bless.
On the evening of last Memorial Day, I watched "Saving Private Ryan" for the first time since its 1998 theatrical release. But saw it with my three sons — 17, 14 and 12 — this time. Wasn't quite the shock to the senses as it was in the theatre — no SurroundSound bullets whizzing by, and the wide-screen production rendered on a 20" TV set served to subdue (somewhat) the visual impact. But I found it even more emotionally compelling this time (due to the presence of my boys, no doubt). So a few remarks on "Ryan," in light of the Start Tribune's Memorial Day editorial excerpted by Naum:

First, from a Sep. 1998 Joe Sobran review in "The New American":

"The film has won the praise of Paul Fussell, whose book 'Wartime' is severely critical of the false picture of World War II combat American civilians got from the government-censored media and movie industry. Until late in the war no pictures of dead American soldiers were published; in the movies, wounds were either superficial or cleanly fatal, never really hideous. Americans had little conception of what their sons and brothers were actually going through. Fussell unsparingly describes the actual terror of the battlefield, in which a direct hit from a shell can turn a man into a moment of pink mist and the soldier knows that at any instant he may lose any piece of his body — if not his life.

"Fussell accepts World War II as a necessity, but he can't abide talk of its 'glory.' He remembers dodging through fields slippery with blood and random body parts: limbs, heads, intestines, genitals. He insists that we face what war really is. We have hardly been allowed to know. Even anti-war films have softened the reality of wholesale mutilation and what C.S. Lewis (a World War I combat veteran) described as 'man smashed like beetles.'

"'Saving Private Ryan' will surely have one good result: Nobody who watches its opening sequence will allow his son to be sent into any war that isn't truly defensive. 'Humanitarian' UN operations won't qualify."

And, for THIS father, neither will "regime change" or "spreading freedom."

After having watched "Private Ryan" with my boys, I told them two things:

First I told them about the Pentagon's Pat Tillman coverup. I think Tillman's parents would have understood the sad realities of friendly fire, had the Pentagon come clean right up front about how Tillman died. Instead, Pat's parents are now spitting mad that the Army lied to them about how Pat met his end, believing that the Army maintained the ruse for as long as possible for PR (read "recruiting") purposes. (Do any of you think their anger unrighteous?)

Second, I told my boys that, given the horrible realities of military combat, I would be heartbroken if any one of them died in a just (i.e., defensive) war — heartbroken, but still proud. (And I would also hope they'd all volunteer to defend their home — as would I, if neccessary.) But if one of them were to die in an unjust (i.e., foreign policy) war, my heartbreak would only be exceeded by my anger.

Since it seems that we insist on prosecuting wars for purposes other than national defense, I regret that I must counsel my sons not to volunteer for military service. Not merely because they might die in an unjust cause, but because they would be required to participate in it — murder for the State.

Phrank in Foenix,
An anti-THIS-war evangelical Christian conservative

"Cursed are the proud, for they shall inherit the quagmire. Cursed are the warmongers, for they shall be called sons-of-bitches."
It is the issue of our time, when I started writing on this site, i didn't want it to be so focused on politics, but this issue transcends everything, be it you a Republican, Democrat, Indepedent (I've been branded a "lefty", though I pledge allegiance to no political party).

Neocon and others still can't answer my question on why it is necessary for Americans to die for a war that had not one iota to do with defending our country. And all the evidence that has come out illustrates the deceptions and lies employed to justify an illegal, immoral invasion of a sovereign nation that did not threaten the United States. AFAIC, the money these corporations are raking in on this war is pure blood money, paid with the blood of our youth and innocent Iraqis, and at the cost of our moral standing. Supporters of the neo-conservative empire plans are quick to retort how anti-war advocates are pro-Saddam, but Hussien has nothing to do with it. Government of Iraq is a decision for Iraqis (and the country's neighbors if they believe their neighbor nation has committed agression worthy of casus belli), not Americans, or Saudis, or Halliburton, or GE, or Dick Cheney, etc...

>>Since it seems that we insist on prosecuting wars for purposes other than national defense, I regret that I must counsel my sons not to volunteer for military service. Not merely because they might die in an unjust cause, but because they would be required to participate in it — murder for the State.

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