Iraq Moving Towards Open Civil War
An interview with Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh on the topic of the illegal immoral Iraq invasion, Abu Ghraib, the insurgency, and Ahmad Chalabi.
The overall status:
I have a friend who is a major player who went to Iraq recently. There's been a series, unreported, a series of missions in Iraq that have all been there to study the war -- where are we? -- and they’ve all come back pretty negatively. This guy came back and he saw the President months ago. And he said, “Mr. President, we're losing the war in Iraq.” And there was a sort of a three-second beat and Bush said, “You mean we're not winning.” And this guy said, “Hey, I told him what I had to say. If he wants to turn it the way he wants to, that's the way it goes.” You know, so he hears what he hears.
On Ahmad Chalabi:
Here's what I know about that. I know that King Jordan comes to visit America quite a bit – the United States. And the President likes him -- our President, George Bush, because he speaks good English. He went to a prep school here in America, and he's very pro-Western. And he sees the President, and he has told friends -- this is about nine months ago -- he was stunned. He was seeing the President. The President said, you know, “Your” -- whatever he calls him -- “I have a favor.” He said, “Of course, anything.” “I want you to pardon Chalabi.” And he was stunned, because, you know, how can he pardon Chalabi after what he had done. The money he stole was from old women and children, you know, little funds, and he was reviled, Chalabi. I have actually read -- I actually somebody in the intelligence community once gave me the transcript of his trial in Arabic. And we had it translated at The New Yorker. This time he was sort of out of vogue, and a story never emerged out of it, but the trial was devastating. I mean, they had him nailed. And he was smuggled out of the country. He probably was in cahoots, by the way, with various members of the royal family then during this stuff, you know, bribery, etc. In any case, he was stunned, and he didn't know what to say. He went back and he asked people in the parliament, who said, “Are you kidding?” So all I can tell you is that Abdullah is doing what the President of the United States, to his amazing shock, because this was after the stuff came out about Chalabi and his connection to Iran. This is probably a neo-con, a neoconservative play. I guess if you wanted to extrapolate it, I don't know whether -- if anybody cares, but I’m sure the White House would deny it and say it's not true, but I can categorically tell you this is Abdullah's story, this I do know. And he was stunned. And he couldn't do it then, so obviously, he thought time had passed. The idea that the President after Chalabi was in big trouble over his connections to Iran and being accused of leaking information whether rightly or not --
America is putting into power the same crew that we struck against.
Well, basically, what we have done since -- in the last year, is we have recreated the Iraqi Mukhabarat. This is the heavy-hitting secret police that Saddam ran. We have gone in and recreated many of the members, put them through a little acid test, made them vow that their allegiance – to what? – I guess, to America, or they're no longer Saddamites. In any case, this is our main force right now. This is the force that Allawi controls. This is a force, the former, you know, whatever the guys, whatever you want to call them, the former roughest guys that Saddam had are now working for us. They're our most prominent security force. And we have had really an amazing spectacle of the Secretary Of Defense, Rumsfeld, making at least two trips in the last five months, I think it’s three, but I know of two, I think it was three, though -- going in and basically -- once before the election was announced, and two more trips -- basically pleading on the inside for the two major factions, the Kurds and the Shia, I'm assuming some knowledge of -- I hope I'm not -- Iraq? -- you know, the country? and there's -- anyway, I don't want to kid you. But we're negotiating -- obviously the whole point of the election was to keep Allawi in play so that he could serve as a bridge, our man, between the Kurds and the Shia. And what he delivers is, of course, is the Mukhabarat.
Comments
Is it possible to change my handle that I entered?
I dont want future employees to type "trav1bailey" from my email, and the first thing to come up is this conversation.
If you remember pre election in Iraq there was a lot of cynicism. According to the LA Times article since January their has been a significant shift in how they perceive us being there.
I love the way the left always attacks and tries to discount any info if it has any ties what so ever (even if it is reported by the LefAngels Times I may add) to Republicans. When Chomsky and Zinn speak it is like Friggin EF Hutton in this mug!
I have been do a little reading on Zinn lately, and boy Trav, it seems as if you have been sippin a little on his Koolaide if ya know what I mean, Wink wink. Your responses to things are very much like his.
What I don't get is you put so much stock in what Zinn says. Isn't Zinns whole book just the anti American version of history? He does exactly what he accuses our schools of teaching all these years, but just puts his anti american spin on it. Then he expect us to swallow it whole because he says so? Hmmmm. .... And by the way he sold over 400,000 copies. I wonder what he did with the money he earned from those books? Do you think he could of sent it over seas to help those poor Iraqis? Oh! I know he probably divided it up among all those countries we atrocized! Well interesting how Zinn, Chomsky, Moore and all the rest of the lefties live in this blood thirsty, war mongering country and rake in the dough, and then do nothing to "HELP THOSE POOR PEOPLE' they are so concerned about! Then they continue to live here and even though they hate the corporations they belong to the biggest of all (entertainment Industry).
Howard Zinn is a treasure, a bonafide hero (who did serve admirably in WWII) who "follows the money" and has done much to show history from an average person POV instead of the top-down, celebrated mythic lore that comprises the substance of American history (at least at grade school level/high school level). Zinn's book is not "the anti-American version of history", and if you wish to throw labels around, it's another sign of your ignorance. You don't have to be in lock step with his views, but there's no dispute that his treatise spurs intellectual discovery, even amongst those who disagree philosophically and politically.
Chomsky, I'm not so enamored with, he twists things around to suit his perspective and is totally conspiratoral in his outlook, a brilliant man, he should stick to his discipline of linguistics, though he's never even given a voice in the corporate controlled mainstream media and is relegated to those who've heard him speak through recordings or read the not-so spectacular books he's written.
I'm sure that Iraqis want security, but they're not getting it, from the U.S. forces which are too small in number to be everywhere, or the corrupt thugs whom the Americans seem to be supporting. The same scum, I may add, that we invaded their country to get rid of (Saddam's secret police force).
Once again, I cannot believe you are qualified to be a teacher. Your ignorance on matters of history is simply astounding and you seem to have no sense of historical reference other than jingoistic bromides pounded into your skull.
I'd recommend some texts to read, but you'd no doubt eschew such advice. I'll give you a link, http://hnn.us where you can discover writings from historians of all political slants, and maybe it might crack into your dogma a tad. I will certainly pray for your future enlightenment.
And you say I'm ignorant-?? LOL! What about the Jingoistic bromides pounded into your Skull?
Well what's wrong with Chomsky? Does Zinn get a pass because he was active in spreading American Tyranny throughout Europe?
Well what do both Zinn (THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY) Chomsky, Trav, and Naum all have in common (other than thinking they are all individually the smartest people to walk the Earth since Jesus Christ)? They all reside in this country making money, and taking full advantage of the freedoms they don't want others to have, and proclaim to hate!
Does anybody disagree?
"Name calling" is to be expected from somebody who choses a board handle of "Kerrysucks", I suppose…
{8:6} Because to every purpose there is time and
judgment, therefore the misery of man [is] great upon him.
{8:7} For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can
tell him when it shall be? {8:8} [There is] no man that hath
power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither [hath he]
power in the day of death: and [there is] no discharge in
[that] war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are
given to it. {8:9} All this have I seen, and applied my heart
unto every work that is done under the sun: [there is] a time
wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.
{8:10} And so I saw the wicked buried, who had come and
gone from the place of the holy, and they were forgotten in
the city where they had so done: this [is] also vanity. {8:11}
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed
speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set
in them to do evil.
And all THAT name calling is justified because my name is Kerrysucks! Wow! Amazing! (just in case I confuse you again I was being sarcastic)
Mondo! Yes, Even the most "tolerant" can't handle it if you don't see things exactly the way they do!
Glad you joined the argument.
Kerrysucks vs me, with mondomo adding a biblibal scripture occasionally. (you really have changed mondo--amazing to watch)
What I was askign Naum, if there was anyway to change my handle. I typed in my old handle in google, and the iraq war article came up very first. I have one internship and am awaiting on two more internships and a job. Any employer could type in my yahoo name trav1bailey and up comes my anti-american tirade. Not good. Like Kerry I want to keep my real life and virtual life seperate, unlike Kerry, I was stupid and I posted trav1bailey, which happens to be my yahoo address too.
If I registered could I modify anything? I have tried to register but with no success.
Huh?
I was not trying to discount the liberal LA Times, if you reread what I wrote, you will see that I agreed with what the LA Times wrote.
It troubles me, but does not surprise me how you make so many broad generalizations about the "left". The left contains people from joe liberman to communists. That is like comparing you to a neo-nazi skin head, which is the far right. There are many shades of gray within both the left and right of the party, it is not so simplistic or black and white as you appear to think.
"If you remember pre election in Iraq there was a lot of cynicism. According to the LA Times article since January their has been a significant shift in how they perceive us being there."
Yes, I am not disagree with this. But your argument was that the majority of Iraqis actually want us in Iraq. As of January 2005, the vast majority did not. Can we agree upon this point? I guess we will have to wait for the next post-election poll.
"I have been do a little reading on Zinn lately, ...Your responses to things are very much like his."
Yes, and... No one lives in a vaccum.
As Alexis de Tocqueville said:
"History is a gallery of pictures in which there are few originals and many copies."
I am sure that I can find some right wing fundamentalists which your views correspond too.
ZINN
Obviously you have been doing some extracircular reading outside of Zinns book, probably "trusted" right wing media, like frontpage. Here, let me save you time, if you have not already read this frontpagemag article:
http://www.livejournal.com/...
I still plan on reading Kissingers book, do you plan on reading Zinns?
"Isn't Zinns whole book just the anti American version of history?"
I will ask you the same question, in the hopes you find out yourself.
"Do you think he could of sent it over seas to help those poor Iraqis? Oh! I know he probably divided it up among all those countries we atrocized! Well interesting how Zinn, Chomsky, Moore and all the rest of the lefties live in this blood thirsty, war mongering country and rake in the dough, and then do nothing to "HELP THOSE POOR PEOPLE' they are so concerned about! Then they continue to live here and even though they hate the corporations they belong to the biggest of all (entertainment Industry)."
Oh please, this is the oldest tactic in the book, simplistic Argumentum Ad Hominem attacks. Attack me with labels like "traitor" all you want, and I will call you many colorful terms to, but when we start actually talking about authors and facts, I am going to pull out the trusty "Logical fallicies & Top Ten Dodge List". Focus on the mans ideas, not the man. You are using the same tried and true tactics that both the left and right use to destroy a persons credibility-- obviously you do not live in a vaccum either.
"Then they continue to live here and even though they hate the corporations they belong to the biggest of all (entertainment Industry)."
First calling the entertainment industry the biggest industry of all shows your understanding of corporations is laughable.
Second, obviously you have never read my livejournal link which addresses this rehashed criticism of dissenters in America. You seem to consistently muddle Americans foreign policy with our life here in America. This rehashed them is really getting annoying.
" Oh, I am sorry I didn't realize Howard Zinn was God!"
To call those who support Zinn a "God" is really rich, coming from someone who has blind, zealous patriotism mixed with deep ideological religious dogma. The two go hand in hand.
"I guess everything this man utters has to be the truth because he is God. I mean how could God/ Zinn possible say anything less than the absolute truth?"
You are the person who deals in strict, unbending absolutes, not us.
" Such an unbiased man like Zinn"
You obviously have never read Zinn. I think in the introduction (or the epilogue) of the very book you own, Zinn talks about how all history is biased, and how we should not believe that any history is NOT biased. Read the frontpagemag (link above) critism of Zinn, which discusses this, and severly chastizes this very logical idea. Again, obviously you have never read much Zinn.
I need to do some errands...
I was not trying to discount the liberal LA Times, if you reread what I wrote, you will see that I agreed with what the LA Times wrote. "
What I was referring to is that you mentioned that a Republican company conducted a survey.
Who cares about January! I care about what is happening now!
You make broad generalizations about the right as well. We are all ignorant and stupid because we don't buy into the crap you do.
The entertainment industry makes more money then most corporations is what I meant. Yet they get a pass! Hmm I wonder why?
I am pointing out how ridiculous all of you are. You believe anything a man like Zinn would say for God's sake. It is laughable! Do you realize that the man is making money hand over fist in the contrary that he hates spewing HIS VERSION of history all over the place. Then you accuse us of being ignorant and stupid and blindly following our government! UNBELIEVABLE. If I came on here and said I believe everything Rush, Bush, etc. says. You would be all over that. Yet you do it. My point was Zinn in mere man, he has opinions and biases like EVERYONE in the world! You and Naum act as if everything the man says is absolute truth. It is so hypocritical. Zinn wrote the book to prove to us that our "version" of history is false. WHat makes him the expert? You are following believing everything this man says, just like you accuse us of blindly following the government.
Don't critique my arguments either, and Mondo hasn't changed. You did the same thing with Neocon and then turn around and attack him. Critiquing our arguments, saying someone has changed is just more of your same crap.
Still you haven't answered my question, if you hate this country then why are you bothering to get a job here. Why is Zinn still in this country. Why does he bother? Why not leave and live among the poor brown boogy men and use his money to help them. He is still here, you are still here, Chomsky is still here! HYPOCRITES!
Information on the video can be found here:
http://www.rottentomatoes.c...
The other videos are mediocre to okay, this one in particular is excellent.
The 9/11, also a Tuesday, was when the CIA coup overthrew and murdered the democratically elected leader who threatened commercial interests, and put in the ruthless dictator Pinochet. 30,000 people were murdered.
School of America's (in Virginia, USA) trained Chilean torturers who electrocuted men's privates, put rats in women's vagina's, had children watch their parents get tortured and disemboweled, trained dogs to maul torture victims, and threw people from helicopters. The man who told the story best friend's bones were broke, was tortured, then was murdered, he himself was sentenced to life in prison, served five years, then was deported.
I am recording it for 5 families; I will also add the movies:
The War Crimes of Henry Kissinger,
Life and Debt, and possibly
The Corporation.
I am also including for one friend the History channel video:
In Search of History, The Plot to Overthrow FDR,
Which I discuss in detail on my web blog, for those who are interested here:
http://www.livejournal.com/...
I can mail a copy of the video to any of you three, to any address.
“Most of those Iraqi Civilians are not the innocent, they are terrorists."
“I really could give a crap less way they hate us”
A few years ago I read the first two chapters of Goldhagen’s book: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/...
Arguing with you back and forth Kerry, I have decided to buy the book, to help understand your mentality. This is not some low, below the belt hit, I am 100% serious and genuine.
“Goldhagen's gripping and shocking landmark study transforms our understanding of the Holocaust. Refuting the widespread notion that those who carried out the genocide of Jews were primarily SS men or Nazi party members, he demonstrates that the perpetrators those who staffed and oversaw the concentration camps, slave labor camps, genocidal army units, police battalions, ghettos, death marches were, for the most part, ordinary German men and women: merchants, civil servants, academics, farmers, students, managers, skilled and unskilled workers. Rejecting the conventional view that the killers were slavishly carrying out orders under coercion, Goldhagen, assistant professor of government at Harvard, uses hitherto untapped primary sources, including the testimonies of the perpetrators themselves, to show that they killed Jews willingly, approvingly, even zealously.”
I am not claiming that you killed any of the millions of people that America has either directly or indirectly killed, I am just saying that you are a willing, even zealous advocate of the murder, along with, unfortunately a majority of Americans. Just as ordinary Germans were zealous murders of Jews.
Kerry, Goldhgen’s book was met with the same arguments and character attacks which you level at myself, Naum, and those who expose America’s mass murder. Nazi Germany’s blind patriotism and zealous defense of mass murder is not an anomaly. In fact, during the same period another book was written about France’s brutal civil war in Algeria. Many older Russian Communists still refuse to accept Stalin’s ruthless purges.
Your patriotic zeal and emotional arguments are as old as war itself. Indeed, a century ago, the same justifications were used by blood thirsty Americans in the Philippines. It is with a heavy heart that I realize that I was so wrong to think that Americans are simply misled into massacring millions of people. That is one of many points which Zinn and I disagree: he believes that fundamentally Americans are good, that if they realize the horror and murderous toll that we inflict on other countries, that the majority of Americans will raise up and stop the war. Seeing the euphoria and support of the Iraq war, reading about the vast support for the Philippine war a century ago, and the genocide of Indians two centuries ago, I disagree. I think Zinn in optimistically naïve. The majority of Americans are no better than ordinary Germans in the Holocaust.
35 wars and interventions Kerry, since World War 2, and only ONE, Columbia, which installed a successful democracy for any amount of time, a success rate of 3%. A STATISTIC THAT YOU HAVE IGNORED REPEATEDLY because it does not easily fit into your simplistic and naïve world view. Again Kerry, where is the intellectual interest, the intellectual curiosity in this statistic I repeatedly quote? Are you afraid if you earnestly study and analyze this statistic, you are afraid of what you will find?
I cry and my heart aches for the death of those brutally murdered Sept 11, 2001. Your mourning abruptly ends with those who happen to have been lucky enough to be born in America. My heart ache goes beyond man made borders, beyond medieval ideas of “us” and “them”, to the people of the world as a whole. Shame on you Kerry, shame on you. You embody the reason why there will truly never be peace in the world, why humanity, as Einstein put it, “will fight World War 4 with sticks and stones”, why, as Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government.” Every ruthless invasion was backed by millions of Americans just like you Kerry, people with medieval views of “us” and “them”. You represent why I have no hope for humanity’s long term future.
As Afghanistan goes up in flames with anti-American rage, and Iraq insurgent attacks continue to worsen.
Remember why they hate us Kerry, remember that picture of that blood spattered toddler, blood from her own parents. A picture which was seen around the world, and picked up by hundreds of media outlets.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/sha...
You did look at the picture didn’t you Kerry?
This is your “freedom” we bring to Iraq Kerry.
I am willing to send the video to any of your addresses, if any of you just promise to sit down and watch it.
“WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO IS THAT YOU MENTIONED THAT A REPUBLICAN COMPANY CONDUCTED A SURVEY.”
I simply quoted the name of the organization. Again, I do not dispute the facts of the study, nor am I attacking the source (Ad Hominem).
“WHO CARES ABOUT JANUARY! I CARE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW!”
Okay genius, how many Iraqis want America to leave. That was your contention, that more Iraqis wanted America to stay than to leave, wasn’t it? I am referring to the most recent polling numbers—you are obfuscating (definition: To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: “A great effort was made... to obscure or obfuscate the truth”) the whole argument, repeatedly.
“YOU MAKE BROAD GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT THE RIGHT AS WELL.”
Um, no, I am quoting statistics.
“THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY MAKES MORE MONEY THEN MOST CORPORATIONS IS WHAT I MEANT.”
I agree.
“YET THEY GET A PASS! HMM I WONDER WHY?”
I don’t know, this is an issue I would rather not discuss, but we can, if you like.
“I AM POINTING OUT HOW RIDICULOUS ALL OF YOU ARE. YOU BELIEVE ANYTHING A MAN LIKE ZINN WOULD SAY FOR GOD'S SAKE… YOU AND NAUM ACT AS IF EVERYTHING THE MAN SAYS IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH. IT IS SO HYPOCRITICAL… ZINN WROTE THE BOOK TO PROVE TO US THAT OUR "VERSION" OF HISTORY IS FALSE.”
Refer to email above, which I just posted, disagree strongly with Zinn.
I also think his ideas of how to stop fascism were absurd.
I really like Chomsky, but Naum doesn’t. Careful to make broad generalizations (A warning I sometimes must also heed)
“DO YOU REALIZE THAT THE MAN IS MAKING MONEY HAND OVER FIST IN THE CONTRARY THAT HE HATES SPEWING HIS VERSION OF HISTORY ALL OVER THE PLACE.”
Umm, let me repeat:
Simplistic Argumentum Ad Hominem attacks. Attack me with labels like "traitor" all you want, and I will call you many colorful terms to, but when we start actually talking about authors and facts, I am going to pull out the trusty "Logical fallicies & Top Ten Dodge List". Focus on the mans ideas, not the man. You are using the same tried and true tactics that both the left and right use to destroy a persons credibility-- obviously you do not live in a vacuum either.
When I read and debate Kissinger’s ideas, I WILL NOT discuss his appalling and horrendous history in the Nixon administration. I will debate the man’s IDEAS. Period.
“MY POINT WAS ZINN IN MERE MAN, HE HAS OPINIONS AND BIASES LIKE EVERYONE IN THE WORLD!”
I agree.
Would you like me to post his epilogue?
Could you read the first two pages of the Epilogue in A People’s History of the United States?
I find it ironic that frontpagemag attacks Zinn for stating almost exactly your same point.
http://www.livejournal.com/...
“DON'T CRITIQUE MY ARGUMENTS EITHER…YOU DID THE SAME THING WITH NEOCON AND THEN TURN AROUND AND ATTACK HIM. CRITIQUING OUR ARGUMENTS, SAYING SOMEONE HAS CHANGED IS JUST MORE OF YOUR SAME CRAP.”
Sorry, I will continue to critique your arguments
Just because you can’t logically argue, don’t try and change the rules. I am trying to (loosely) stay on topic here, and avoid silly arguments which have no factual basis and no way of proving or disproving.
“…AND MONDO HASN'T CHANGED.”
Ultimately only Mondo knows (and maybe even he doesn’t—I have changed before in my life and been in denial). My observations may be wrong, would not be the first time, nor the last.
Oh, good, I am getting you really pissed off, good.
My email right after this should get your blood really boiling. Neocon left cause I compared him to Al-Quaeda, lets see what happens when I compare you to ordinary Germans during the holocaust.
If you stick around, my blogs in the next week are going to be peppered with quotes From Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust.
In the coming weeks you will also have to contend with parallels between the Philippine war and Iraq.
I figure since you are not interested in those 35 counties which we invaded or intervened in, you are going to learn about each one during the coming months from me, I will spoon feed you the facts, as I read books about each massacre and foreign intervention.
Next up may be books about Reagan and Nicaragua, or Reagan and Grenada, or Bush I and Panama, Wilson and Haiti, or Roosevelt (?) and Panama. I may read some more books on the Philippine war, including and apologists account. See, history, at least as far as I have read this far, supports my view that Iraq and Afghanistan will be a democratic failure but possibly a corporate success. Your viewpoint, on the other hand, has MOSTLY only emotional appeals and circular arguments to back it up.
I look forward to the coming months.
Persistence pays off Kerry.
Although I fear I will not give you an answer to your satisfaction, I WILL answer, for myself only, your persistence question if you ask again.
If you want, I will answer this question out of respect for you, because you were kind enough to answer my question.
But a warning: The answer will actually be several posts long.
If you still want an answer, web blog me here.
I can’t answer for Zinn directly, but I can quote from his book.
A closet communist lent me the book “Declarations of Independence: Cross Examining American Ideology”, I read the book, and when you started to counter-attack me, this time attacking my personal life:
(http://azplace.net/index.ph...
“8. SINCE YOU DESPISE THIS COUNTRY SO MUCH, THEN DON'T USE IT LIKE A CHEAP WHORE. USE AMERICA, BAD MOUTH AMERICA, AND THEN LEAVE AMERICA WITH YOUR EDUCATION TO USE IT AGAINST AMERICA. IT IS REALLY DISRESPECTFUL TO THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE, NOT TO MENTION THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO PUT THEIR ASSES ON THE LINE FOR YOUR FREEDOMS THAT YOU USE.”)
...I had a nagging feeling that part of your question was very eloquently covered in his book. I bought Zinns book, and it was.
I found much of the quote online. I just posted it on my web blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/...
Here is a relevant excerpt:
“It seems that the idea of owing, of obligation, is strongly felt by almost everyone. But what does one owe the government? Granted, the government may do useful things for its citizens: help farmers, administer old-age pensions and health benefits, regulate the use of drugs, apprehend criminals, etc. But because the government administers these programs (for which the citizens pay taxes, and for which the government officials draw salaries), does this mean that you owe the government your life?
Plato is enticing us to confuse the country with the government. The Declaration of Independence tried to make clear that the people of the country set up the government, to achieve the aims of equality and justice, and when a government no longer pursues those aims it loses its legitimacy, it has violated its obligation to the citizens, and deserves no more respect or obedience.
We are intimidated by the word patriotism, afraid to be called unpatriotic. Early in the twentieth century, the Russian-American anarchist and feminist Emma Goldman lectured on patriotism. She said,
Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. . . . Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others."
Even the symbols of patriotism - the flag, the national anthem - become objects of worship, and those who refuse to worship are treated as heretics. When in 1989 the U.S. Supreme Court decided that a citizen has a right to express himself or herself by burning the American flag, there was an uproar in the White House and in Congress. President Bush, almost in tears, began speaking of a Constitutional amendment to make flag burning a crime. Congress, with its customary sheepishness, rushed to pass a law providing a year in prison for anyone hurting the flag.
The humorist Garrison Keillor responded to the president with some seriousness:
Flag-burning is a minor insult compared to George Bush's cynical use of the flag for political advantage. Any decent law to protect the flag ought to prohibit politicians from wrapping it around themselves! Flag-burning is an impulsive act by a powerless individual-but the cool pinstripe demagoguery of this powerful preppie is a real and present threat to freedom.'
If patriotism were defined, not as blind obedience to government, not as submissive worship to flags and anthems, but rather as love of one's country, one's fellow citizens (all over the world), as loyalty to the principles of justice and democracy, then patriotism would require us to disobey our government, when it violated those principles...
(page 299) Patriotism would mean not blind obedience to a nation's leaders, but a commitment to help one's neighbors and to help anyone, regardless of race or nationality, achieve a decent life.
CHEAP WHORES
P.S. Cheap whores are about $20, my whore is a first class whore: $140,000 BEFORE interest. Who is using who? Me for wanting an education, or the fucking banks which, if I decide to pay of my loans, will own a good chunk of my income for the next 30 years?
Just stick to the argument, okay? I am not bringing up your teaching career (what Naum does is up to him), I am only criticizing what I perceive as your personality, so please don’t bring up my personal life.
You confuse my beliefs with all of those on the left. As the Economist magazine recently wrote, Americans, in general, whether they be democrat, liberal, conservative, republican alike, are a pretty patriotic group.
I think the issue YOU have with liberals is NOT that they are not patriotic (they are) but that they are not "patriotic" ENOUGH.
You seem to take issue that many liberals don't see America LIKE YOU DO. Some liberals don’t see America in your, simplistic, childish terms. Some liberals don't see all the world's problems in "black and white", "good versus evil" terms. They are the casual church goers to the American religion, condemned by those ideological zealots such as yourself.
http://www.livejournal.com/...
THERE is no thunderbolt that the American right likes hurling at its foes more than the accusation of “anti-Americanism”. Most of its targets are foreigners. But, from the right's point of view, there are plenty of unAmerican leftists at home too. Conservative congressmen labor over laws to prevent leftists from burning the American flag. Conservative talk-show hosts are for ever uncovering anti-Americanism at Harvard or on National Public Radio. And conservative activists are forever shouting at liberals: “Why don't you move to France?”
Good article from a very libertarian magazine.
"The real battle-line in the culture wars is not between pro-Americans and anti-Americans; it is between two groups of patriots who have very different ideas about what makes America America (with the regional battle-lines, incidentally, bearing some similarity to those in the civil war).
This carries a warning for two very different sorts of people. The first is anti-American foreigners: they should not take clowns like Mr Moore or Mr Churchill as typical. Americans are a patriotic bunch—and, for the most part, this patriotism stretches from one end of the political spectrum to the other. The second is the American right. So far, conservatives have played the unAmerican card extremely well; but when it comes to unAmerican purges there is always a danger of overreach."
The fact remains you are still here in the good ole US of A! So is Zinn and any other "anti American" "Commie" "Whore" You can call yourself more patriotic, less patriotic, a leftie whatever it is just a another name for a hypocrite in my book. It boils down to those ANNOYING people who bitch during the whole movie about how horrible it is and what you want to say, "If you don't like the movie go ass%$%^^!"
OH God now you are comparing me to nazis, fun! LOL you are so ridiculous. You haven't pissed me off at all, i Just think you are mentally ill.
"I am not claiming that you killed any of the millions of people that America has either directly or indirectly killed, I am just saying that you are a willing, even zealous advocate of the murder, along with, unfortunately a majority of Americans. Just as ordinary Germans were zealous murders of Jews. "
RIGHT Back at you, after all weren't YOU the one defending the terrorist for killing Americans?
Don't flatter yourself Neocon left for a break from politics, I really don't think it had much to do with you.
I wonder what would happen if Zinn required all of his readers to eat a decoded piece of crap! LOL! Come on you know you would!
That fact remains, you only critique my arguments to make yourself feel superior and to get attention off your lack of substance.
I know all your BS, you think you can educate us into believing your spill? Go FOR IT! In the mean time I will call you out every single time.
In your world of academia you think you are, oh so smart while hinding behind your books. You need to experience the real world a little. You really do live in a vacuum. Surrounded by your "anti american" law professors (also living here in the US).
Get real you won't Answer my question because you have no answer, either does Zinn. THat is the biggest problem I have. You "intellectual elites" act as if you are so much smarter than the rest, and yet you are being reeled in by their words like some mind numbed robot. Your being duped son. When Bennet asked Chomsky about still living here in America he had NO ANSWER. JUST LIKE YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.
You aren't pissing me off, I think it is hilarious. The hypocrisy is off the charts. I am usually laughing my ass off as I read your posts because they are so ridiculous. The things you believe about this country and yet you still live here? LOL!
So compare me to Nazis, al queda, whatever, boooriing you won't be the first, probably not the last. Libs love to run to the nazi routine. It will be great fun!
Remember that story I told you about the comic book guy? Well here is the story.
This guy had a lot of followers, whatever this guy said was the gospel truth. Even to the point when a real army ranger went on Micah's chat room the would attack him saying he was a troll.
Notice he too likes Zinn. LOL!
Let me repeat history, not emotional, angry empty words.
"35 wars and interventions Kerry, since World War 2, and only ONE, Columbia, which installed a successful democracy for any amount of time, a success rate of 3%. A STATISTIC THAT YOU HAVE IGNORED REPEATEDLY because it does not easily fit into your simplistic and naïve world view. Again Kerry, where is the intellectual interest, the intellectual curiosity in this statistic I repeatedly quote? Are you afraid if you earnestly study and analyze this statistic, you are afraid of what you will find?"
I prove that the majority of Iraqis in Jan 2005, want America out, and I have yet to have you admit this.
Who is delusional and not focusing on reality?
It is vital if we are to reach that plateau of dignity that we take on the cause of nobility and righteousness. When we do this there are bound to be those who, for whatever selfish, weak reasons, stay in the mire and the muck of pettiness who will attack our goals in hopes of hiding their own low behavior by bringing all that is above them down to their hopeless state. So it is important to stand strong to your convictions and maintain the purity that is granted through self discipline and sacrifice. Remember who you are and who endowed you with the purpose which you strive to achieve. Grow and climb higher that you may be found worthy in the end of your days and not found wanting. Shrug off the chains of selfishness, ego, and desire. strip away all the bad and hold onto the good keep that in you which is pure blessed and holy.
It saddens me to see so little progress made and so much selfish EGO flag waving. Do you not remember that we are but pawns of human nature if we deny the piety that allows us to transcend human nature and utter such profound words as "LOVE THY ENEMY". Surely these are not the words of man, whom even the greatest among mortals could hardly fathom the true meaning of such a decree. Solomon in all his wisdom would have found such a statement absurd, as many, who have not heard the whispering voice of angels spoken directly to the spirit of man which alone is made perfect in it's ascent from beyond, could only conclude that it is better to love oneself and through that, our corruption is sealed.
Stop making excuses and laying blame for the state of YOUR world after all it is YOURS to do with as you see fit. If you chose to be the master or the slave that choice is yours and yours alone. There is LIBERTY however for those who have vision to seek it, and for those who are not afraid to shed the vanities that we place upon ourselves. Can you KILL that part of you that has blended you so fully with the darkness and dare stand as a light shining in the darkness. Can you give birth to the aspect of righteousness that puts you at odds with the desires of this world? Can you DARE? Can you LIVE FREE of what you thought was important? Can you let go of the branch and trust the wind to carry you through the heavens? It is easy to embrace that which makes us comfortable, but so much harder to hold that which might shatter our preconcieved illusions of what is true and what is false.
"1 Thessalonians
{5:1} But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have
no need that I write unto you. {5:2} For yourselves know
perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the
night. {5:3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then
sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a
woman with child; and they shall not escape. {5:4} But ye,
brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake
you as a thief. {5:5} Ye are all the children of light, and the
children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
{5:6} Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us
watch and be sober. {5:7} For they that sleep sleep in the
night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
{5:8} But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the
breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of
salvation. {5:9} For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but
to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, {5:10} Who
died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live
together with him. {5:11} Wherefore comfort yourselves
together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
{5:12} And we beseech you, brethren, to know them
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and
admonish you; {5:13} And to esteem them very highly in
love for their work’s sake. [And] be at peace among
yourselves. {5:14} Now we exhort you, brethren, warn
them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the
weak, be patient toward all [men. ]{5:15} See that none
render evil for evil unto any [man;] but ever follow that
which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men.
]{5:16} Rejoice evermore. {5:17} Pray without ceasing.
{5:18} In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God
in Christ Jesus concerning you. {5:19} Quench not the
Spirit. {5:20} Despise not prophesyings. {5:21} Prove all
things; hold fast that which is good. {5:22} Abstain from all
appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace
sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and
soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth
you, who also will do [it.]{5:25} Brethren, pray for us."
I already countered your so called survey of Iraq once with more currrent findings.
Why should I answer any more of your questions when you stilll don't answer mine?
I feel bad for you becasue you are just like those Micah followers, bkindky following spewing off HIS facts and then the guy was a fraud. So sad.....
Hey Micah is still living here too! Why?
Have you read the Stolen Valor yet?
by Howard Zinn
The Progressive magazine, November 1998
http://www.thirdworldtravel...
INTERESTING
"Where was the criticism of Clinton when he signed the crime bill to build more prisons and execute more people on the falsehood that these acts will deter crime?
Where was the criticism of Clinton when he approved the attack on the Waco compound, which led to the deaths of eighty-one people, arguing erroneously that it was the only alternative?
Where was the criticism of Clinton when his Administration refused to join the international ban on land mines or authorize a strong world court on the specious grounds that the United States would be in jeopardy?
Where was the criticism of Clinton when he defended Boris Yeltsin's brutal attack on Chechnya by obscenely comparing it to Abraham Lincoln's war to unify the states?
Where was the criticism of Clinton when he continued the embargo on Iraq, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, with the bogus rationale that the embargo punishes Saddam Hussein?
Now these hypocrites, so silent when people die as a result of lies and deceptions, summon indignation about Clinton's sexual activities. The President has lost his "moral authority," they say.
Did he not lose moral authority when he took away basic benefits from single mothers and food stamps from immigrants?"
"Control over the past controls the future. All of Flynn’s subjects’ actions led to severe consequences, but only Howard Zinn attacked and distorted the fundamental truths of American heritage. His book, The United States: A People's History fixes a flawed Marxist lens on the rearview mirror to our past, mangling all roads that have led us to where America stands today. His paradigm of American history is not rooted in democracy and freedom, but in greed and guilt. Through blatant lies regarding the causes of horrific wars, blaming accomplishment for terrorist attacks, we are not proud to be American—we are to apologize for it.
Zinn is frank in admitting his bias. Flynn notes Zinn remarked he wanted his "writing of history and my teaching to be a part of social struggle." Although fault certainly lies at Zinn's door, the guilt extends throughout academia. This book is assigned by dozens of universities in hundreds of classes across the country. When considering who has had the most opportunity to "turn back," the blame is extended to professors that assign this text and students who accept it. The rings of guilt permeate campuses and radiate Zinn's lies exponentially, posing a significant threat to American culture."
"Is Howard Zinn guilty of blatant, heinous crimes? No. Zinn’s academic manipulations are certainly not akin to child molestation. It is the covert nature of Zinn’s work, however, infiltrating young minds on such massive levels that makes a pernicious impact on the world. Flynn’s other subjects are clearly threatening, but Zinn provides the clearest illustration of what they all are doing: distorting and destroying America as we know it. Orphaned children are often vulnerable to rash, cultish ideas because they lack firm family grounding. They don’t have a sense of who they are or where they came from. These internal voids are easily filled with self-mutilating activities, like abusing drugs or joining local gangs. Although harmful, these behaviors provide meaning to these children. Zinn has effectively robbed young minds by shattering the true concept of what America is and how it developed. He has replaced a proud history with one of insatiable greed. Howard Zinn, enabled by thousands of other so-called intellectuals, has orphaned our country."
"We are living in times of madness, when men in suits and ties, and yes, a woman secretary of state, can solemnly defend the use, in the present, of indiscriminate violence-they do not know what they are bombing!-against a tyrant who may use violence, in the future. The phrase "clear and present danger" has therefore lost its meaning. The phrase "weapons of mass destruction" too has lost its meaning when a nation which possesses more such weapons, and has used them more often, than any other, uses those words to justify the killing of civilians "to send a message." We who are offended by this should send our own message to our demented leaders."
“MARX IS NOT DEAD”
And I am going to try to prove it by bringing him back on the scene. And from there I'll show difference the U.S. public what Marxism is really about. Marx himself would explain the difference between Stalinism and Marxism. I'll remind people what Marx's criticism of capitalism was. I would demonstrate that these ideas have much to with the United States today. In other words, that Marxist criticism today is exact and current.
Exclusive interview with the U.S. writer Howard Zinn.
“Objectivity is impossible,” Zinn once remarked, “and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable, because if you have any kind of a social aim, if you think history should serve society in some way; should serve the progress of the human race; should serve justice in some way, then it requires that you make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity.”
"Howard Zinn's History Lessons
EVERY WORK of history, according to Howard Zinn, is a political document. he titled his thick survey "A People's History" (A People's History of the United States, 1492-Present [Perennial Glassies, 2003]) so that no potential reader would wonder about his own point of view: "With all its limitations, it is a history disrespectful of governments and respectful of people's movements of resistance.""
"But Zinn's big book is quite unworthy of such fame and influence. A People's History is bad history, albeit gilded with virtuous intentions. Zinn reduces the past to a Manichean fable and makes no serious attempt to address the biggest question a leftist can ask about U.S. history: why have most Americans accepted the legitimacy of the capitalist republic in which they live?
His failure is grounded in a premise better suited to a conspiracy-monger's Web site than to a work of scholarship. According to Zinn, "99 percent" of Americans share a "commonality" that is profoundly at odds with the interests of their rulers. And knowledge of that awesome fact is "exactly what the governments of the United States, and the wealthy elite allied to them-from the Founding Fathers to now-have tried their best to prevent.""
Keep Fighting
Zinn's Hope...Is it a Reality?
http://globalresistance.com...
http://www.drugwar.com/EYKI...
http://www.icdsm.com/more/t...
http://www.georgetown.edu/c...
http://www.commentarymagazi...
http://www.mattdamon.com/pm...
"Matt Damon, the star and co-writer of the movie ``Good Will Hunting,'' is a family friend of Zinn's and a former student of Aaronson's. Damon gives Zinn's book a plug in the film -- his character calls it a ``REAL history book'' -- and now he and co-star Ben Affleck are working on a television dramatization of ``A People's History'' for the Fox network. "
http://www.tamilnation.org/...
http://www.frontpagemag.com...
"In an effort to bolster his arguments against putting criminals in jail, aggressive law enforcement tactics, and President Clinton’s crime bill, Zinn contends that in spite of all this “violent crime continues to increase.” It doesn’t. Like much of Zinn’s rhetoric, if you believe the opposite of what he says in this instance you would be correct. According to a Department of Justice report released in September of 2002, the violent crime rate has been cut in half since 1993.
According to Zinn, it was Mumia Abu-Jamal’s “race and radicalism,” as well as his “persistent criticism of the Philadelphia police” that landed him on death row in the early 1980s. Nothing about Abu-Jamal’s gun being found at the scene; nothing about the testimony of numerous witnesses pointing to him as the triggerman; nothing about additional witnesses reporting a confession by Abu-Jamal—it was Abu-Jamal’s dissenting voice that caused a jury of twelve to unanimously sentence him to death.
Predictably, Zinn draws a moral equivalence between America and the 9/11 terrorists. He writes, “It seemed that the United States was reacting to the horrors perpetrated by the terrorists against innocent people in New York by killing other innocent people in Afghanistan.” Scare quotes adorn Bush’s “war on terrorism,” post-9/11 “patriotism,” and other words and phrases Zinn dislikes."
http://www.command-post.org...
http://www.truthtree.com/so...
Howard Zinn MP3 files
http://blogs.salon.com/0002...
Howard Zinn , of the Progressive ,lays out the scenario for the demise of the Bush administration as each new lie and deception is exposed to the light of truth.
It's a great read for those , including myself, who are impatient for regime change in 2004.
Allen Roland
Excerpt:
" The arrogance, the posturing of this Administration, is becoming more and more hollow as its lies become exposed, its "victory" in Iraq a sham, its tax program an obvious theft by the rich.
The change in public opinion starts with a low-level discontent, at first vague, with no connection being made to the policies of the government. And then, as some connections become unmistakable, indignation rises, and people begin to speak out, to organize, to act.
The uneasiness grows and grows, and the citizenry gather in resistance in larger and larger numbers, and one day the top-heavy empire falls over. "
http://www.iww.org/culture/...
http://press.arrivenet.com/...
I prove that the majority of Iraqis in Jan 2005, want America out, and I have yet to have you admit this. What percentage Kerry? I feel like a father trying to make my stubborn little girl eat brochili.
Mondo, sure makes it easier for others to read a book, instead of yourself.
I already responded to FrontPageMagazine.com criticism of Zinn:
http://www.frontpagemag.com...
No need to bother with the history, when you have the author to target.
http://www.thirdworldtravel...
http://mcsweeneys.net/2003/...
"U N U S E D
A U D I O C O M M E N T A R Y
B Y H O W A R D Z I N N
A N D N O A M C H O M S K Y ,
R E C O R D E D
S U M M E R 2 0 0 2 ,
F O R T H E F E L L O W S H I P
O F T H E R I N G
( P L A T I N U M S E R I E S
E X T E N D E D E D I T I O N ) D V D ,
P A R T O N E . "
Note: portions of the above articles are based on opinions, those opinions, may or may not be the opinion of the poster. These postings are posed solely for informational purposes and may or may not inspire reflection.
Oh.. did I just comapre them to Nazis? :)
"THIS GUY HAD A LOT OF FOLLOWERS, WHATEVER THIS GUY SAID WAS THE GOSPEL TRUTH. EVEN TO THE POINT WHEN A REAL ARMY RANGER WENT ON MICAH'S CHAT ROOM THE WOULD ATTACK HIM SAYING HE WAS A TROLL…NOTICE HE TOO LIKES ZINN. LOL!"
Wow, is it any wonder that in your own words: "Don't critique my arguments either" No wonder, with such juvenile arguments, you don’t want me to critique your arguments…
Kerry is the same genius who on one hand feels that anyone who tries to explain why people hate us are terrorists, which leads to the logical conclusion that the state department, which explains why people hate us and also is waging the war are actually terrorists!
MONDO
Welcome back mondo, from your 40 day fasting in the wilderness. It seems you are back to your own self. My mistake, I was wrong.
Kerry was getting quite belligerent, and the circular arguments she poses are getting tiring, so it will be nice to argue with you for a while.
“THAT THE MAJORITY OF IRAQIS WANT US IN IRAQ.”
Kerry, if you want me too, I can copy the entire LA TIMES article here, and also the original Republican Institute study, and missing in the study is the statement which you so fervently stated:
“THAT THE MAJORITY OF IRAQIS WANT US IN IRAQ.”
That was the original statement, which I called you on, oh, 40 posts ago.
I am glad you brought up this Micha guy, cause like him, you are caught in an embarrassing position, where you feel like you will lose face if you back down and admit the obvious. Ironic and pathetic.
ZINN
Are we going to argue any of Zinn’s actual historical facts, or just argue about Zinn the author?
Here, let me help you with your character assassination of Zinn:
On NPR Zinn said he was a “Socialist democrat”.
Zinn wrote a theater play about Emma Goldman, who I quoted before, who was a communist. She went to Russia right after the revolution and become disillusioned with communism.
But the real focus here is Zinn ADMITS he is a socialist. In addition, he wrote a play about a former communist.
"JUST FOR THE RECORD I POSTED PRO AND ANTI ZINN ARTICLES, ALL OF WHICH I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING READS. I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH HIM ON A FEW ISSUES.....TRUTH FOR ONE THING AND IT'S IMPORTANCE"
Yes, my apologies Mondo, if I did not point this out before, I noticed that you posted both pro and anti Zinn articles.
Does this mean we are not going to argue? Hmmm...Back to the circular arguments.
KERRY WROTE:
"OH…DID I JUST COMAPRE THEM TO NAZIS? :)"
I am sorry what Kerry, what do you mean? Sorry for being so slow.
"TRUTH FOR ONE THING AND IT'S IMPORTANCE"
What sections are you talking about Mondo, which article?
"OH…DID I JUST COMAPRE THEM TO NAZIS? :)"
oh nevermind, i just figured it out...goose step...
Did you read the article about Micah?
Yes, thanks for sharing it.
I saw that book years ago--right after 9/11.
Welcome back mondo, from your 40 day fasting in the wilderness. It seems you are back to your own self. My mistake, I was wrong."
I HAVE YET TO FAST, GOOD IDEAL THOUGH, I MAY TRY THAT.
{3:10} In this the
children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he
that loveth not his brother. {3:11} For this is the message
that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one
another. {3:12} Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one,
and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because
his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
"I have one internship and am awaiting on two more internships and a job. Any employer could type in my yahoo name trav1bailey and up comes my anti-american tirade. Not good."
WHAT A STUNNING ADMISHION ON YOUR PART TRAV.
1. YOU ARE "ANTI-AMERICAN".
2. YOU ARE ASHAMED OF IT.
3. YOU ARE NOT SO STRONG IN YOUR CONVICTIONS THAT YOU WOULD EMBRACE YOUR BELIEFS EVEN AT THE RISK OF LOSING A JOB.
4. YOU WOULD SEEK TO HIDE AN ASPECT OF YOUR PERSONALITY THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE IN SO STRONGLY THAT IT WOULD EVENTUALLY BECOME APPARENT ANYWAY.
I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU BY THESE STATEMENTS JUST AND OBSERVATION.
ZINN HIMSELF STATED “Objectivity is impossible,and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable, because if you have any kind of a social aim, if you think history should serve society in some way; should serve the progress of the human race; should serve justice in some way, then it requires that you make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity.”
"make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity"
ARE WE TALKING ABOUT SELECTIVE HISTORY TRAV? BASED ON A BIASED OPINION? IS THAT THE HISTORICAL "FACTS" WE ARE TO DISCUSS? IT'S QUITE EASY TO WRITE AWAY HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF HISTORY AND SAY ABC WAS ACTUALLY ACB. ONE SIDE WE HAVE A POLITICAL AGENDA AND THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE THE SAME, HOW CAN WE REFUTE PROPOGANDA WITH MORE PROPOGANDA. THE QUESTION IS WHO DO YOU TRUST?
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