19 June 2004

Things You Have to Believe to Be a Democrat Today

By Jay D. Dyson.

Just to balance out the Things you have to Believe to be a Republican Today posting that generated so many comments.

  1. Drug addiction is a disease that should be treated with compassion and understanding...unless the addict is a Conservative talk show host.

  2. The United States should be subservient to the United Nations. Our highest authority is not God and the U.S. Constitution, but a collective of tinpot dictators (and their appeasers) and the U.N. charter.

  3. Government should relax drug laws regardless of the potential for abuse, but should pass new and unConstitutional anti-gun laws because of the potential for abuse.

  4. Calls for increased security after a terrorist attack are "political opportunism," but calls for more gun control after a criminal's spree killing is "a logical solution."

  5. "It Takes a Village" means everything you want it to mean...except creeping socialist government involvement in the nuclear family.

  6. Disarming innocent, law-abiding citizens helps protect them from evil, lawless terrorists and other thugs.

  7. Slowly killing an unborn innocent by tearing it apart limb from limb is good. Slowly killing an innocent disabled woman by starving her to death is good. Quickly killing terrorists, convicted murderers and rapists is BAD.

  8. Every religion should be respected and promoted in public schools the name of diversity, so long as that religion isn't Christianity.

  9. The best way to support our troops is to criticize their every move. This will let them know they're thought of often.

  10. Sexual harassment, groping and drug use are degenerate if you're the governor of California, but it's okay if you're the President of the United States.

  11. Sex education should be required so that teens can make informed choices about sex, but gun education should be banned because it will turn those same teens into maniacal mass-murderers.

  12. Minorities are blameless for the hatred of the racist; women are blameless for the hatred of the rapist; but America is entirely at fault for the hatred of Islamofascists.

  13. Poverty is the cause of all terrorism...which is why the leaders of al Qaeda are typically U.S.-educated and were raised in wealth and luxury.

  14. The Patriot Act is a horrific compromise of Constitutional rights, but anti-Second Amendment laws and Franklin Roosevelt's Presidential Order 9066 must be regarded "reasonable precautions."

  15. We should unquestioningly honor the wishes of our age-old allies, even when said allies no longer act like our allies and have vested economic interests in propping up our enemies.

  16. Socialized medicine is the ideal. Nevermind all those people who spend every dime they have to get to the United States so they can get quality medical care...that their nation's socialized medical community can't provide.

  17. Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky and Natalie Maines are perfectly qualified to criticize our leadership, but Arnold Schwarzenegger, Charlton Heston, and Dennis Miller are just ignorant political hacks.

  18. John Lott's research on how gun ownership reduces crime is junk science, but Michael Bellesiles is still an authority on why gun control is good (even though he was forced to resign from Emory due to research misconduct over his book "Arming America").

  19. Bush's toppling the Saddam regime was a "diversion," but Clinton's lobbing a couple of cruise missiles at Iraq in the thick of the Lewinsky sex scandal was "sending a message."

  20. A president who lies under oath is okay, but a president who references sixteen words from an allies' intelligence report should be dragged through the streets naked.

  21. Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning Second Amendment rights and shopping the courts for judges sympathetic to causes that wouldn't pass in any legislature.

  22. "The People" in the First Amendment means The People; "the People" in the Fourth Amendment means The People; "the People" in the Ninth Amendment means The People; "the People" in the Tenth Amendment means The People; but "the People" in the Second Amendment (ratified in 1791) means the National Guard (created by an Act of Congress in 1903).

  23. You support a woman's "right to choose" to kill her unborn child, but don't believe that same woman is competent enough to homeschool the children she bears.

  24. Proven draft-dodging is irrelevant, but baseless claims of AWOL status is crucial to national security.

  25. Threatening to boycott Dr. Laura's and Rush Limbaugh's advertisers is exercising Freedom of Speech, but threatening to boycott CBS's "The Reagans" and Liberal actors over their asinine anti-American remarks is censorship and McCarthyist blacklisting.


Comments

I-IIIIII Like it!!!
Oh Neocon...I just KNEW you were smarter than this..
Read on:

OBITUARY

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend by the name of Common Sense who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such value lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbearing
regulations were set in place.

Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Finally, Common sense lost the will to live, as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, she spilled a bit in her lap, and was awarded a huge settlement from MacDonald's.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason.

He is survived by two stepbrothers: My Rights and Ima Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still know him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

I realize that the above comments (both Republican and Democrat)are supposed to be funny, but those with no common sense...really believe they are true. How sad!

Ever heard of Michael Moore? Of course, you have. Do you know what HE thinks of the Democratic Party? I believe he called them a wimpish party that couldn't stand on their own two feet. Therefore, I assume he's not a Democrat. However, his documentary, Farenheit 911 isn't political...it's just the truth about the man we didn't vote into office. Politics isn't really an issue in all of this. I think most people with common sense would vote for whomever they feel is the best man for the job, regardless of his political party (I know there are those diehards who wouldn't vote against their party if the devil was running on their ticket), as can be seen from the last election. Open up your eyes and see what kind of man Bush is, and stop comparing him to ANY other president. Kennedy had extramarital affairs, and so did every president before, and that's really none of our concern. What IS our concern is whether or not the man is doing the job he was hired by US to do. If every man was fired from his job for a simple BJ, there would be few (if any) men employed. Set your sights on the real issues here; forget politics, forget, for a minute, your views on abortion, gay marriage, etc., and take a real look at Bush.
I would, however, like to have a nice discussion with you on gay adoption...if you're interested.
I must comment on #5. "It takes a village" was Hillary Clinton's way of saying that everyone should be involved in raising a child...neighbors, churches, family, schools, etc. I can see some validity in that statement because we are all responsible in assisting children to grow up properly..good role models, etc. However, it's primarily the parent's job to raise their kids. As for the nuclear family, it's not the fault of gays that the nuclear family has all but disappeared. It's because whenever someone gets pissed of at his/her spouse, they can too easily get a divorce, and because too many men skip out on their responsibilities on child support and raising their children. The nuclear family has been destroyed by the nuclear families themselves. It's easy to leave your wife/husband for a younger, cuter model. Why support your kids...afterall, you have another family to support now...until the next younger, cutie walks by, and you want her/him. People in this country are not satisfied with what they have. They want something newer; they want more. No one wants to work at anything, and it's harder to work on a marriage than it is to go find a new lover. It's easier to make new children (and more fun) than it is to stick with the ones you've got, step up to the plate, and accept the responsibility for raising and supporting them.
It's funny how we want to blame anybody and everybody else for our problems, but if you want the truth about who to blame for the fall of the nuclear family, look in the mirror.
Peacemaker.....you must relax sometimes. This was funny, plain and simple. I was just looking at editorial cartoons today, most of which are anti-Bush. Most were funny; I couldn't help but smile and laugh at some. I got a smirk out of the Republican one; but when liberals reacted to it with serious text, I just have to frown. Relax....we're all hypocrites to a degree.

Now, if you want serious discussion on anything, leave Michael Moore out. He's as much a joke for the left as Pat Buchanon is for the right. He's a P.O.S., who simply aspires to succeed through contoversy; in other words, he's a lying little *****.
We did vote Bush in. The electoral college is essential for this Republic. The Supreme Court put an end to new lingo like hanging chads and "voters intent."
Clinton wasn't impeached for a BJ. Aye aye aye..... I know we have to put up with his sob stories as told on Oprah, Rather and Larry King.

I've never compared Bush to another president; at least I don't think I did. I try not to do that, at least until he's out of office. I'm quite happy with his actions after 9/11. Peacemaker, no matter what he does, or did, he'd still be an unelected regime-ruler and hitlerite. You know that. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be entirely pleased with a Democrat(Al Gore especially). I'd be screaming pissed with a Michael Moorite, or Ralph Nader.
Look, I'm not stupid; I'm not blind; I'm not ignorant....I know what I consider truth and I know who best represents my positions overall. Bush's faults: Not squeezing out pork projects in the federal budget; not cutting more on spending; and taking a rather neutral stance on immigration.
Bush has donefine with the War on Terror. Truthfully, his economic policies have worked well, as jobs are coming back very quickly. However, I always give the american workers and business credit for economic gains. They do it all.
Remember, Peacemaker, I'm a neocon (I've adopted your sides term for someone like me); but I'm really just an average Tom who likes Budweiser, Rock and Roll, Baseball. Most of all, I'm a father who looks forwardto going home everyday to see my wife and child.
Ohhhhhhhhh...gay adoption....tough issue, Peacemaker.
Let me have a couple beers first....talk to you later.
P.S. stupid keyboard again.
LOL
Wouldn't mind a beer, myself, though I'd prefer a nice glass of wine. Yes, I do, sometimes, become a little too intense over some situations, and fully admit that I am opinionated. That's just the kinda guy I am. My sister and I were discussing education, and whether or not to close the borders. Both were interesting discussions. Neither one of us (you and I) are going to change the world in this little forum, but I enjoy voicing my opinion and listening to others.
It's funny...I watched this site for days waiting to see who would be the first to say something. I had to smile when it was you. I think if we knew each other, we'd like each other, Neocon. Hope to talk to you later, and I'll try to maintain my cool. :-)
Touche'. You're probably right. Politics isn't a necessary ingredient to frienship. A good friend of mine tells me when he becomes more conservative, then MAYBE he'll register Democrat (he's a Nader fan). I 'm acquainted with Naum also (he runs this site). I don't actually know him, but he's a good guy.
Well, one thing I'm not is a Nader fan. Believe it or not, I'm watching Biography on A&E...it's Clinton. He was charismatic if nothing else. I, honestly, can say that there hasn't been a president worth voting for since JFK, in my opinion. Ooops..there I go being opinionated, again. I met JFK and we drank from the same coke bottle. I kept it until one of my kids took it to the store for a 10 cent deposit. She's still thanking her lucky stars that I allowed her to live.
So, tell me why you feel the way you do about gay adoption. Is it single adoption you're against, or just by gays?
Having spent the better part of two hours reading everyones post. I have come to the conclusion that religion is the root cause to all of these problems. If homosexuals want to marry and adopt children, the it is the U.S. Governments duty to make sure that they can. It is first and formost the governments duty to protect the Bill of Rights. It is there to protect the things other people disagree with. I believe that considered "moral" is just plain stupid. What someone considers "amoral" does not mean crap to me. If you want to protect "marriage" then outlaw divorce. It's as simple as that.
I really liked your last line Beezle, but unfortunately, if divorce were outlawed, spouses would be forced to murder each other. Like I said before, "we the people" want the easy fix. We don't want to work for anything and what we want, we want NOW! I have to say that I agree with most of what you said because what is moral to me may be immoral to you, and that's up to US to decide, not the government. Government shouldn't dicate morals. I feel that I should be FREE to do whatever I want, as an adult, in this country, as long as I don't hurt anyone else or infringe on anyone else's rights.
That is a very good point you make therePeacemaker. If everyone that has a problem with what anyone else is doing, they should just ask themselves one question, How does it affect me? Lets face it, what anyone does, does not affect me in the least, and I think that goes for pretty much everyone too.
Well, Beezle, In my opinion that's why we have all this trouble in the world. Everyone is so worried about what everyone else is doing...being judgmental about what everyone else is doing. It seems to me they should be paying more attention to what they, themselves are doing and get their noses out of other people's business. Speaking of religion...doesn't the bible say something about throwing the first stone? After looking at ourselves, I don't think there is a one of us who has the right to throw the first stone, do you? Unfortunately, there are a lot of self-righteous people out there with stones in their hands.
That is my point with religion being the root cause to all of this crap. The bible is so full of contradictions it makes my head hurt. I think if you outlaw religion, maybe that will fix everything. And if it does'nt, well, it will still get that idiot Benny Hinn of the television.
Yeah, and I'd like just one person to show me something in the bible that GOD actually said. If the bible was on trial, it would all be dismissed as hearsay because it's just a book written by a bunch of guys about what their opinion was about what Jesus said, meant, felt and did. Hell, I could write a book like that about my neighors and call it gospel.
And, you're right, of course, it's full of contradictions because it was written by different men, and since when have men (people) agreed on anything?
MINNEAPOLIS — A man who authorities believe may have been part of an Al Qaeda "sleeper cell" obtained a license to haul hazardous materials months after he was identified as a suspected terrorist by the FBI, officials said.
The FBI identified Mohamad Kamal Elzahabi as a suspected terrorist before the attacks of 2001, the Star Tribune reported in Wednesday's editions, citing unidentified law enforcement officials.
Yet Minnesota Department of Public Safety officials said they did not know that Elzahabi was suspected of having Al Qaeda connections when he applied in early 2002 for a commercial license to drive a school bus and haul hazardous materials.
Elzahabi, 41, was charged Friday with lying to federal authorities about helping ship sophisticated portable field radios to Pakistan from 1995-97 and lying about helping a man, later convicted in Jordan as a terrorist, obtain a driver's license in Massachusetts.
Before Elzahabi got the commercial driver's license in early 2002, the FBI ran his name through a database and cleared him, Pat McCormack, interim director of the state Public Safety Department's Division of Driver and Vehicle Licensing, told the Star Tribune in Wednesday's editions.
As of Tuesday, his driver's license was still valid for the transport of toxic materials, the Star Tribune reported. McCormack said Elzahabi's school bus driver's license was canceled in February. He did not explain why.

Thank GOD for Homeland Securities! Can anybody even spell INTELLIGENCE?? LOL
This is one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Turn up the volume and enjoy. http://www.stileproject.com...
Amazing how many Americans still believe they live in a "Two Party Sytem". Maybe you should all trash your TV´s and get into
some real life. And just who or what is this "GOD" everyone keeps bleating about. Just my 2 (Euro) cents worth from FREE
Europe.
oops seems I can´t spell system, shit I´m turning into a
Repugnican
I wonder what part of Europe? Because if you don't live here, your opnion on our system of government does'nt really mean shit to me.
Well that´s your problem. Your response is also a very good example of the attitude that´s being percieved from outside the hypnotic field engulfing your culture. I´m no stranger to the USA
so I could claim to have an informed opinion. I am currently located in Vienna, Austria, once homeland of Adolf Hitler. The
shit being generated by the Bush Junta is eerily familiar and well
understood here. Maybe you should get out and about more.

" your opnion on our system of government doesn´t really mean shit to me."

And neocon "opinions" about the origin and function of life on
Planet Earth wouldn´t mean shit to me if they weren´t being
used to justify some of the biggest global crimes ever comitted.
Your informed opinion still does'nt mean jack squat. You don't live here, you sure as hell don't vote in our elections. We know George W. Bush is making The United States look bad, that is why he is about to be voted out of office. So why don't you go back to polishing your nob to your pictures of Hitler, and keep your opnions to yourself.
So, my opinion doesn´t count, I already know that. I don´t live
in the USA, I already know that. GWB is making the USA "LOOK"
bad. How superficial can you get? Let me fill in a small detail
about just how bad. In the building where my flat is, there are Three families from the country that used to be called Yugoslavia, refugees. Ordinary, nice people. Two of these families have small children who are severely deformed, why,
because their mothers were in the warzone when Saint Wesley
Clark unleashed the Uranium enriched munitions in populated areas. I see these kids every day, it makes me angry.
It will make ZERO difference if Bush gets thrown out, Kerry is a
clone with a different badge. I will keep my opinions to my self
just as soon as the last American Military Base OUTSIDE the USA is closed, and the American government stops putting it´s nose
into other nations affairs. I don´t have even one picture of Hitler
to polish my nob to, I guess you do it over your gun collection eh!
Well, shit for brains, the next time an Aussie starts killing off jews, poles, slavs, homosexuals and decent families, we'll just tay on our side of the ocean and watch.
Have you read the papers recently? It seems the grand idea to cut work hours to 35, along with a one month vacation, holidays and everything else in Europe has led to a society of sloths and do nothings. And you have the gall to criticize the USA?
I'm sure you can find other families in Eastern Europe who are proud that the US stood up to the USSR; families in Bosnia who are glad the US arrived when your "caring" countries had your fingers up your ass and spinning around like bobbleheads. There are families now in Iraq who can walk outside their houses; where they are now getting electricity and plumbing. GW may be hated in Europe, but that's because he's exposed the UN and EU as a bunch of do-nothings who prefer to "discuss" the slaughter of hundreds of thousands rather than actually reacting.
We, the USA have been forced to be the world's policeman and strong man since WWII. Why? Because Europe's Imperial role over the last few hundred years have created the poverty, anarchy and danger in the Third World. In other words, it's all Europes fault. We Americans will have to do our best to fix it.
I don't agree politically with Beelzebubba, because I'm a proud Republican. I can say, however, that he is absolutely correct. Bug out, pea brain.
Well, as usual, I can see truth with boths sides of this story. I believe Neocon is right in the fact that we (the USA) have helped free many countries from tyranny, but I also agree that as in Viet Nam, when we're not wanted...we're not wanted, and should stay out. As for Bush, I can relate with Zarquon's comment about Europe's comparison to Bush and Hitler. I think people need to open up their eyes and see just what Bush is after. Neocon...Bush doesn't give a hot damn about you or any of the rest of us. He's a dictator...or a wannabe, and he's frightening. To Zarquon: As far as the two-party system is concerned, whether it is or isn't, we still only have two people from which to choose. Nader, or any other candidate that runs on a thrid party is NEVER going to win in this country, and is only there to take votes away from the Republican or the Democratic candidate, therefore, we have a choice...vote for Bush or vote for Kerry. I don't think either one of them are great candidates, so we have to choose the lesser of two evils, and we already know what kind of guy Bush is, so I think we should give someone else a chance. Kerry couldn't possibly do any worse, and he might do better. At least he's not hearing the voice of God saying, "I want you to be president"...LOL
Personally, I like it that someone from another country has an opinion, and unlike the others, I'm interested in hearing it. Educated people are interested in hearing all sides, therefore they can weigh the information and make a more informed decision. Others are just stuck in their own opinions, believing all the propoganda fed to them, and get angry when someone else inserts a different opinion. I also agree that it does effect you and others around the world, especially when the president of the USA wants to control you. Bush wants to run the country! This is not my opinion, it's a fact, and anyone in this world, not wearing blinders, can see that! There have been several presidents I believed to be idiots...Nixon was one, but I never thought for a moment that he wanted to be the "leader of the world". Bush does. He slid through life, not working, but drinking and doing drugs...he slid to the presidency because his brother is the governor of Florida, he's not educated enough to speak English properly, and relies on others to write what he says. Every president, so far, has said something profound that is remembered throughout history. Bush made the comment when asked about how history would remember the war on Iraq, "History? History? We'll all be dead". Does that not scare you? I guess if we live through the Bush administration, we'll damn well remember that...and the other stupid things he's said. No matter what happens, though, the president can't be elected a 3rd time....that is unless Bush decides to change that law, too.
Peacemaker...I know you're a nice guy and all; you just make me laugh. Comparing Bush to Hitler: I just have to smile and nod sympathetically. Bush a dictator: I have to laugh. It's a fact that Bush wants to rule the world: I have to roll and keep myself from peeing my pants. The only one who wants to control the world is The Brain; Pinky just gets in the way. Facts? Sorry, no. Not even close. You see, when Michael Moore takes facts and pieces them together lies, rhetoric and propaganda ,you get garbage. Piecing the notions of Bush-Hitler; Bush-Dictator; Bush-Regime together is also just bad garbage. Do you know how many times through our history that people have bemoaned presidents as such? Plenty. But we are still a Republic and life goes on in this great country. In 2008, Bush will step down and the country will go on. How can people call themselves proud americans and suggest that somehow one person can usurp our entire system that has weathered worse in its 215 years? It just doesn't happen; it won't happen. Be optimistic, not so dreadfully pessimistic.

Remember, Peacemaker. History doesn't record famous quotes until far after that person is gone. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address was condemned at the time as a junk speech and not worthy.

This educated person is not interested in a European condemning our system. The two party system has worked here since its inception (no third parties have won an election). I wouldn't go onto a European site and start commenting on their government and asking why they're so backwards. If the people are happy with a Socialist system; go for it.

It's amazing how this schmuck can actually condemn our government. This government system based on private enterprise and individual rights had the money and available labor to literally rebuild Europe and put them back on their feet. We then protected Europe from Soviet expansion through military bases in Germany. In other words they have the freedom and love for freedom because of us.
Just my TWO CENTS worth from FREEDOM LOVING USA !!!!
Neocon: "The two party system has worked here since its inception (no third parties have won an election). " I believe that I just said that. I also didn't mention Michael Moore, and I didn't say that Bush WOULD be a dictator, I just said he wanted to be. This country also may be 215 years old, but it's the youngest country around, and it can be destroyed by it's greed just like other countries have and were destroyed by theirs. I'm glad you think that Bush will serve 8 years. I'm hoping 4 is enough.
As for your statement about what we did for Europe, that is true, but don't forget that had it not been for their help during WWII, we might not have won the war. We are allies, and we have always assisted each other. Canada, who, smartly, remains neutral, is also our ally, and has also given assistance when we have been in trouble. I think the freedom that you speak of allows our European friend the pleasure of expressing his disapproval and his opinion, as we express ours about everything that goes on in this world, be it in England, France, or Iraq. When we don't have a war to talk about or an election to talk about, then we focus our brilliant minds on talking about each other. That's the American Way!! You have the freedom to get online and call him a schmuck, and he has the freedom to get online and state his opinion...this isn't the USA web, it's the World Wide Web. That's the freedom you're so proud of, so allow it to happen. I did notice however, that he didn't call anyone any names.
P.S. I like you, too, Neocon, and isn't it nice that we can differ in our opinions, and still live in the same world with others? One thing I have to say about this country and our European friends, is that when the going gets rough and tragedy strikes, we all become one and work together to help each other, forgetting about race, color, religion, and political views...just like 9/11. We were ONE people, then. Today, we're divided. Personally, I prefer the times when we are one people. The only problem with that is that a disaster has to happen to make that so. Isn't that sad?
P.S.
You said: "The only one who wants to control the world is The Brain; Pinky just gets in the way".
This is the problem...whose brain? Yours? I don't think so. Mine? Nah! I wouldn't have the job. So, whose brain are you referring to? Bush doesn't have brain...just an idiot with too much money...none of it he worked for or earned, btw.
You sure answered quickly, Peacemaker. You DID mention Bush was a dictator: "He's a dictator... or a wannabee, and that's frightening"

If I ran this site, I wouldn't bar anyone, including Euros. That's the freedom of speech as part of the Bill of Rights we enjoy only here (does Europe allow such freedoms with so few boundaries: hardly) But I do have the freedom to tell him to bug off; and I'll say it again. It's the american way! I wouldn't bar him, but I do reserve the right to say what the hell do you know about us and how we live?

As for names, Peacemaker; read through your posts and all of ours for that matter. You'll see sublime hints and opinions of those whom you disagree with. Your last post, for instance, you implied educated people listen to all opinions, while others are trapped in their own little opinionated world. You suggested those with blinders don't see he's taking control over us. Translation by those who haven't read you before: You're smart for seeing Bush as bad, while those of us who differ in your opinion are idiots. I know better, so I don't take exception. Others don't and react with blunt replies (like me sometimes: shit happens).

We all do this...the Euro, Zarwhatever wrote that his bad spelling suggested he was turning into a repugnican; that we Americans were idiots for believing in a two-party system. All subtle hints we were stupid (and especially me for being a Repugnican). So I thought to myself, why should this moron (no subtle hints here) express his opinion when he doesn't even live here? Beelzebubba was right on as well.
Therefore, my freedom to express myself just couldn't help spelling out "shit-for-brains". We all do it.
You say Bush is like Hitler and a wannabee dictator. Does that make me, a proud supporter of Bush, a neonazi and fascist pig who wants to stomp on the Constitution? No. I'm just an American who looks to the future with conservative goggles (not blinders), instead ofliberal goggles. That's America, and I'm proud to be able to argue with fellow Americans who wear theother goggles.
Names are just fine for some people, especially when so many use them freely as subtle jargon.

Peacemaker: We're not divided, but politically; it always will be. I work in an office of liberals, many of them speaking the same rhetoric that you do, hanging up cartoons of Bush as a monkey, or stickers calling for "Regime Change at Home."
Does it affect how I interact with them? Hell no. I just don't discuss politics with them. Hell, I couldn't be a rocker with all the angry libs flooding the music airwaves today. I love Bruce, CSN (and Y), the Beatles, etc. I just tune them out when they stop singing and start talking politics. The exception is Barbara Streisand. Never liked her anyway and she has the Marie Antoinette attitude about us Average Joe Americans (I excercise my right to call her a stupid broad).
We've always been "one" as a great, freedom loving America (post 1865, that is). But our individuality makes us that way. Remember that, Peacemaker. Partisan politics ensures our freedom will be long lasting.
Peacemeker: I'm referring to the Cartoon called Pinky and the Brain. It's about a genius mouse (Brain) and his loony sidekick (Pinky). Every night, Brain plots to take over the world. It's a very funny cartoon (Nickelodeans Animaniacs: created by Spielberg). I was attempting to throw some humor in my post. Look them up on the internet; maybe you've seen the cartoon.
Correct again, Neocon. I and others have made subtle (and not so subtle) inuendos regarding our views on other's political beliefs. So Touche' to you, too. :-)
I do believe that Zarquon doesn't have to be an American to know what's going on over here. News travels fast, as they say. I just think he has a right to voice his opinion, and it might be educational for us to find out what the other people (those who, you might say, are not so closely involved) have to say. Being as how you mentioned that America is the world's saviour, then it seems to me that Zarquon has a vested interest in what happens over here, and who is elected president because the outcome of this election will effect everyone worldwide.
I agree with Beezle in his political views, but don't agree that he should dismiss someone not of this country for expressing an opinion, especially when he agrees with the opinion expressed.
You mentioned that "the moron shouldn't express his opinion since he doesn't live here", but I can't recall a time since WWII that we haven't expressed our opinions about what was going on in other countries (where we had never even been before), and piously deciding what WE should do about it. However, until recently we didn't have this lovely WWW on which to discuss it.
My only problem with you is that it appears you believe what your government is telling you. That's unsettling. I guess your youth (I know that pisses you off. I does most young people), hasn't let you see, yet, that it's extremely difficult, to believe anything you're told by the U.S. government. You are only told what they want you to know, and then it's not too close to being the complete truth. Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK? I sure hope not.
As I've said before, you and I don't totally disagree on politics. I actually, am not a Republican or a Democrat. I lie somewhere in between because there are good and bad on both sides. I'd like to think I stand for the good on both sides. We do, however, strongly disagree on the character (I choke on the word) of GWB. I don't believe he has the capability of being a leader. He just thinks he does. He thinks God thinks he does...etc., but he's an embarrassment to the country. He can't even pretend to be sincere. He reminds me of Susan Smith crying over her missing children (with no tears) when she knew all along she had killed them. He's conning you. I'm just not as easily conned. Please note that I'm fully aware that all politicians are trying to con me. I never fully believe any of them, but try to pick the one I think might do the better job of the two. Not a great choice, usually.
Let me give you one small example of what I mean. Back in 1960 Nixon lost to Kennedy, so he ran for governor of California. When he lost that race, he stomped his feet like a little boy throwing a temper tantrum and yelled, "Well, you won't have Nixon to kick around, anymore". Well, I was pretty young at the time, but smart enough to know that I didn't want a paranoid baby as the president of my country. He lied, as we DID have Nixon to kick around some more, so I can proudly say that when I was old enough to vote, I didn't vote for him. Yes, he did some good things, but he was a paranoid schizophrenic, and behaved that way until the end. Had he been a democrat, I would have felt the same way about him. He was a nut! Bush is a nut! Politics aside. It wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if he were a democrat. My favorite political bumper sticker is: Bush: America's Baked Bean.
LOL. OK. I'm a little too old for Nickelodeon. Nope, I haven't seen the cartoon. My kids are your age or older, and their kids are teenagers, so I haven't watched cartoons for many years. Guess I should to keep up on things. :-) I apologize that your stab at humor went over my head.
I wish I had something witty and thought provoking to add, but alas I do not. I do want to appologize for having a knee jerk reaction to someone from outside the US for having an opnion regarding our government. Sometimes I don't look at the big picture and see that things affect people other than me. I know that's hard to believe that I am not the center of the universe as I have always thought myself to be. I can, however learn from my mistakes, and hopefuly I am a better person for having been exposed to opnions from outside my little world.
Good job Beezle! I think we all think we're the center of the universe, sometimes, and we as Americans think America is the center of the universe as well, but as you said, "Alas"...it is not. It might not have been witty, but hopefully it was thought provoking, and it certainly was intelligent. Proud of you!.
The sad truth, fellow Earthens:

The Earth is an average sized planet within the solar syatem.

The Sun is considered an average sized yellow star, which explains why it'll shine for us another 5 billion years, before turning into a Red Giant and rapidly swallowing all planets between Mercury and Jupiter.

Our galaxy is a typical spiral; medium sized: just average. Even worse, our solar system is located in oneof the spiral arms (picture an armpit of the galaxy)

The Milky Way lies within a super galaxy of approximately 20 other galaxies; small in comparison to known huge super galaxies.

Conclusion: Not only are we located within an armpit of the Milky Way, but everything about this existence is AVERAGE and mundane.
(Alas, there is no center of the universe, as it's continuously expanding.)

But look on the bright side:
It's Friday, and I'll drink to that (a few times).
Thanks for the lesson, Neocon. I'll drink to that, too. Have a great weekend!
"I do believe that Zarquon doesn't have to be an American to know what's going on over here. News travels fast, as they say. I just think he has a right to voice his opinion, and it might be educational for us to find out what the other people (those who, you might say, are not so closely involved) have to say. Being as how you mentioned that America is the world's saviour, then it seems to me that Zarquon has a vested interest in what happens over here, and who is elected president because the outcome of this election will effect everyone worldwide."

Hey Peacemaker, thanks for bringing a note of tolerance to this
forum. You have correctly identified my motivation in contributing. If my entry into the fray was a touch provocative it
was intended to be so, to see who comes up with the standard,
usually foul mouthed, fundamentalist crap that is poisoning the
good ol US of A . (You know who you are)

To make my position clear, I love the courage, inventiveness and
open-ness of American society as I know it. I´ve been reading
American Literature, listening to American Music, and tracking
the progress of "the greatest experiment in democracy ever" since I was knee high to a ferret, and that´s a lot of years. I don´t want to see the whole thing go up in smoke or whatever.
Fact is, your media is giving you a horribly slanted picture of what has happened and is happening globally. I´m being totally
serious when I draw attention to the close resemblence of the
emergence of Fascism under Hitler and what the current US govt
is doing. Hell, I´m right here where it happened, I know hundreds of people who´s parents were REAL Nazis, in some cases those parents are still around. Some have "seen the light"
and now understand how they were manipulated, others are
unrepentant, they still believe they are SUPERIOR to other races.
So please, please get off your high horses and try and get some
of the big picture.
Hey Neocon, love your "Galaxy" post, actually we´re not in the
armpit afaik, more like the forearm of one of the spiral arms. As
for the location of the centre, well, quantum theory, at least some interpretations of it, suggest the universe may be something like a hologram where every part contains the whole,
so the only functional centre as far as us humans are concerned
is the location of the observer.
Hmm BEER, now there´s a good idea, think I´ll grab a couple from my cooler and pop down to the local park and go sit under
a tree and drink em up...yeah, in a public place, I won´t be arrested, now THAT`S FREEDOM
Enjoy your beer, Zarquon! Good posting...and you're welcome. :-)
"and drink em up...yeah, in a public place, I won´t be arrested, now THAT`S FREEDOM."

This comment should remind you of all the freedoms we've lost and continue to lose. This country is not nearly as FREE as it was when I was growing up, and it gets less and less free all the time. I'm frankly tired of having to give up freedoms to please those religious fundamentalists that are out to elect people they can manipulate...like Bush...so that we are all forced to live under their religious ideals, while they themselves are out doing the same things they're preaching against. Ex: Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, and those we haven't caught yet. Marijuana is legal in Australia, and do they have anywhere near our crime rate...no! It's a shame that I can't take a beer to the park, but, yes, I'd be arrested. I've always found humor in the charge "public intoxication". If you go out and have a few too many, and do as the law says, and don't drive home (choosing to walk home, instead), you can still be arrested for PI. There are too many laws in this country and that's why there are so many criminals. There was no organized crime until the days of Prohibition, when alcohol was illegal. It became illegal when those religious fundamentalists decided that THEY thought it was sinful to drink. Soon it will become illegal to smoke cigarettes when not very many years ago, judges and lawyers were smoking in the courtroom, and doctors and nurses advertised them on TV. It will be illegal because the public has bought into years of propoganda that if *I* smoke YOU will die. Prostitution is another thing...God, when are we ever going to realize that nothing is ever going to stop the world's oldest profession and instead of making it illegal, the government (if it feels it should be involved in every aspect of our lives) should make it safer for the customers. Separation of church and state....well, the churches have become the state and are paying big bucks to make sure they can elect some idiot who will make sure that the church is in control instead of the state. I believe I've said this before, but as an American, I should be free to do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting anyone else or infringing on their rights. I try to live by following the ten commandments. I object having to live my life according to a bunch of religious zealots who believe they are superior to the rest of us, and speaking for God.
Thanks 4 the welcome peacemaker.

"Marijuana is legal in Australia"

You`ve hit on a standing joke here. It´s AUSTRIA .. No Kangaroos :-))
And Mary Jane is not actually legal but mostly nothing happens to "offenders". However it WAS legal
until the early 60`s when the "Petro-Chemical Lobby" in Concert with Interpol managed to pressure
some European countries to change the laws. It was done under the usual tired old reasoning that grass
is a dangerous drug. That argument came from the interpol side. Later it came to light that the petro-
chemical mob wanted industrial hemp out of the way to allow them to dominate the textile market
with synthetic fibre, an oil industry byproduct. Millions were spent promoting this agenda. There was no
way this could be achieved on an honest platform so the old chestnut propaganda about Marajuana was
wheeled out again, politicians were "rewarded" for their co-operation, and laws were passed banning all
Hemp cultivation. The laws on industrial hemp were later relaxed a bit and limited commercial cultivation
of non THC laden varieties is now allowed, but it´s really hard to get a licence.
Now this is a real mistake as Hemp is an extremely useful renewable resource for textiles, ropes, food and fun.
It also happens to be one of the most efficient sources of "bio-mass", that green stuff that processes our
air supply on planet earth, without sufficient plant life there will be no more humans. Someone please remind
"GREED INC." of this fact

" do they have anywhere near our crime rate"

Nowhere near but it´s changing for the worse. It´s mostly to do with the changes in Eastern Europe.
Austria (no kangaroos) is bordered by The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Italy, Switzerland
and Germany. The influx of "refugees" from the old communist states has included a mix of real mafia
style crooks, and a lot of "economic" refugees who are really disadvantaged at home by the huge
economic gap between rich Austria and their own countries.They often see crime as the only chance to get ahead.
It´s worth pointing out here that Poland and Russia have the most powerful mafia´s in Europe, clearly visible
right up to the government level. I see it as no coincidence that Poland signed up for the Iraqui war, the mafia
are very compatible with the current US regime. Same philosophy, same methods.

"Prostitution is another thing"

Now that IS legal here. Most of the "ladies" on "The Street of negotiable affections" are licenced and get free "health"
checkups from the state. Seems kinda sane to me.
I wasn't getting Austria and Australia confused. I was referring to Australia (kangaroos). It is legal in Australia, and their crime rate isn't anything comparable to that of the U.S. Of course, in the U.S. most crime is blamed on the use of drugs and alcohol. We like to blame things instead of people. So, here, if one smokes a joint and then kills someone it was because he smoked the joint. He was probably a really great, wonderful guy until he smoked that joint and went crazy.
We blame our parents for our dysfunctional upbringing when we commit crimes, as well. Nothing we do is our fault. Taking responsibility for one's own actions isn't something Americans do well. Hell, we even blamed eating a Twinkie as cause for murder. LOL
As for the mafia (as mentioned before), it began to take hold here during probibition, and because liquor was illegal then, and now drugs are illegal, the mafia continues to grow. They are also big into gambling because it's not legal in many states. They control the casinos in cuba and in the states in the U.S. where it is legal...and, yes, they are big in government, and have been since as far back as I can remember, and that's been, as you said previously, a long time.
I liked your reference to "Greed, Inc.". Unfortunately, Greed, Inc. doesn't give a damn about the environment, or the people on the planet. Their only aim is to put as much money in their pockets as they can and they don't care what they have to do or who they have to kill to get it. They know they'll all be dead by the time the real damage occurs, and don't even give thought to their own children and/or grandchildren.
P.S. Forgot prostitution. Organized crime is into that too. That's why I believe that the government feeds organized crime by making everything illegal. If marijuana, prostitution, and gambling were legal, what would organized crime do? We might be able to put an end to them...maybe.
In one of your previous postings, you mentioned guns. I wanted to comment on that because I have mixed feelings on the issue. I agree that every Tom, Dick and Harry shouldn't be running around with hand guns, but on the other hand, if the government takes away our right to bear arms, then only the criminals will be carrying them, and that's a scary thought. We have some pretty strange laws regarding self-defense. If a man tries to climb through your bedroom window, and you shoot him and he falls outside, You'd better drag his dead carcus back in the house, or you won't be able to prove he was trying to get into your house and you were only protecting myself. There are so many legal loopholes in this country, that one never knows what's going to happen in a courtroom. There are people in this country serving more time in prison for smoking pot than some murderers, and then there are some who are obviously guilty of cold blooded murder and are set free to go play golf.
And...for those of you who think I'm putting this country down, I'm not. I'm an American...born and raised, and I love this country, but I'm not blind to its faults. Its faults however are only due to the people who make the laws. Someone decides they don't want to pray in school, so there's a law. Someone decides since her daughter was killed by a drunk driver...there's a law. It's political correctness. Research shows that per capita, little has changed in the amount of people killed per year by drunk drivers, yet if you drink a glass of wine or a beer and drive home, you can lose your license, your job, and it can basically ruin your life. I think one of the mistakes made in this country is that we tend to get a cause and then take it overboard. We don't seem to know when enough is enough. This even applies to good things, like JFK's physical fitness program. Gee, look at it now! It's a huge business. Diets, health foods, excersice equipment, etc. I'm waiting to see when eating red meat will become illegal...after all, it's extremely bad for your health. Seatbelts are another thing. I resent being strapped into my own car. Laws that make kids wear helmets while riding a bicycle. I've never know anyone in my entire life who ever go a head injury from riding a bicycle. Doesn't this younger generation wonder how their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents survived long enough to have them? We did't wear helmets, we smoked cigarettes, we didn't own an ab cruncher, we didn't wear seat belts. There was no speed limit, and we ate lots of red meat. We even went out and tied one on, and drove home. We obviously made it. My daughter was hit by a car while walking across the street. Should we outlaw walking or driving? The accident was her fault. She walked out in front of a car. Luckily she lived, and learned a valuable lesson along the way.
OK Peacemaker, so you weren´t confused. It really is a big joke here that so many people in the world
are not aware of the existence of Austria and think it´s Australia, you can buy "No Kangaroos" T-shirts ;-))
Must say it´s a breath of fresh air talking with you, I´m with you on everything so far.
I´m pretty impressed at the coolness of this forum too, we are WAY off topic or what, guess I should take the time
to check out the rest of the site. Anyway, in an effort to get back on topic.......

I started out here by expressing my surprise at how many Americans still believe they live in a two party democratic
system. Looking at the two main presidential candidates and their running partners it´s really hard to see any difference
other than "style". One of the glaring similarities Between Bush and Kerry is their membership of "The Bones Club" of
Harvard University. Seems highly dangerous to allow such people into positions of power, sworn to lifelong loyalty ,
all of them knowing the others secrets (it´s part of the initiation), and totally secretive about what they are up to. Britains
Tony Blair is a Member of the Bilderburger Group, another secretive club reserved for the rich and powerful. I´m sure
someone will pop up soon on this forum and call me a conspiracy freak, but I find this HIGHLY suspicious. My answer will
be, who needs a conspiracy theory when we´ve got "Project for a new American Century", it´s just an agenda, and a sick one.
All four of the mainstream candidates are closely bound up with "corporate america", all four are "pro" the Iraq war. I must say
I don´t envy you having to make this difficult choice in November. IF THE ELECTION EVER TAKES PLACE! Then there´s the vexing
question of the voting technology, not to mention the bizarre goings on around the purging of "felons" from the electoral register in
Florida where the last debacle happened.
Then , of course we must look at the other two, "outsider" candidates, Nader, and Kucinik. No chance whatever for these two guys.
If there is anything outside of the Greed Inc. party´s monopoly these guys are it. They seem like honest sincere men to me, intelligent,
articulate, educated. Nader in particular is getting loads of flack, and now the Reps are giving him campaign cash in the hope that he
can draw more votes away from Kerry. I can understand Naders position when he say´s he wants "real change" in America. I prefer his
version of "real change" to PNAC´s, but, as the man further up the page said, I won´t be voting.
At the end of the day, it´s all about POWER, the greed for it and the addiction to it once it has been acquired. All these mega-wealthy
politicians at the top of the political food chain have everything material any human could ever need or want. There must certainly be
a lot of truth in the old saying "Power Tends to corrupt, Total Power tends to corrupt Totally". Meanwhile, the known sociopath, George
Walker Bush has his finger on Americas nuclear button, that´s a lot of power.
"Meanwhile, the known sociopath, George
Walker Bush has his finger on Americas nuclear button, that´s a lot of power."

Extremely frightening! And he's not satisfied with that power, he wants more. You're right, however, it's a no win situation, really. You just can't be president or even run without being mega wealthy, as you put it. It reminds me of the Miss America contest. The most beautiful, talented and gifted woman in America isn't in the contest...i.e., the best man for the job of president isn't going to run. We're stuck with a choice of two men who aren't running to make America better, but for greed, recognition, and power. The purpose for Nader and Kucinik even entering the race is to take votes away from the other main candidate. It is next to impossible for these men to get enough votes to win. They know this, of course, and don't really put a lot of effort into winning.
Speaking of conspiracies, I'm not paranoid, but as they say, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone's not out to get you". After living through the assassination of JFK, conspiracy is an easy concept to believe in this country. Those in power will do whatever it takes to get what they want.
BTW, I'm not so sure we (I) was so far off topic. The laws I referred to are made by politicians who want to please those groups who get together and demand laws to prevent things....(like their kids getting hurt), and to prevent people from doing what they want because it might offend someone else. I don't recall (in the Bill of Rights) that it says you have the right NOT to be offended. But, if that's politically correct at the time, then whomever is president has to stand by the 'correctness' if he wants the votes.
Another thing that irks me is the mud slinging during the election. It's how the candidates avoid discussing their positions on the issues.
I'm not sure this is appropriate on this site, but don't know any other way but to ask if you could give me your email address...somehow?
LOL Just re-read my next to last posting....so, ok, maybe I did get a tad off target. :-)
America may be a "two-party" system, but those two parties constantly change as needed. Take a trip down memory lane and you will find more than just Republicans & Democrats.
Well, we could go back to the Federalist and the Whig parties, I guess. Let's see, the Whigs lasted 16 years and the Federalists lasted 21. Then, again, for a very short time there was the American Party, the Liberty Party, and the Free Soil Party...none of which most people have even heard about. From the very beginning of this country, the democrats and republicans have prevailed. Those who were Federalists turned Republican, and the Whigs turned to Democrats. The Free Soil Party...well....does your memory go back that far? Mine sure doesn't. :-)
" Another thing that irks me is the mud slinging during the election. It's how the candidates avoid discussing their positions on the issues.
I'm not sure this is appropriate on this site, but don't know any other way but to ask if you could give me your email address...somehow?"

I´ve been thinking the same thing. Rather not post any email address here, maybe one of us can come up with a list with a private mail
function as the first step. I will also check with my tame internet boffin to see what he suggests. I have a website that used to have an
active "peace" forum but I disconnected it after.... 1, too many of those all too familiar garbage posts, and 2, frequent visits (according to
my stats.) from the US military. Last month 8 times. This may be harmless, but I don´t need any problems when I fly into NYC in the Fall
on a "visa waiver".
Lets see what can be done.
Figured out a way. Just email me at Peacemaker745@hotmail.com
You guys are going way off the sanity wagon,here. Peacemaker, your first post declaring fundamentalists as blame for everything under the sun was highly generalized and inaccurate. Crime rates, Mafia, Prohibition, and tobacco bans.....whoa slow down and look at the picture. Normal people crusaded for prohibition, not the fundamentalists. Tobacco bans? Those are the Nader lovers (Tempe) and psycho doctors who want to govern our health.
Your argument on the mafia is also 2-Dimensional. They existed before and after prohibition. They flourished here, because our Justice System is the best for all (including criminals and the mafia). Sure they profited highly under prohibition, but that was a factor they took advantage of, it didn't create the Mafia.
Besides, legalize everything and you'll see many more consequences than you may want to consider, or visualize. For every action, there's a reaction.

Our president a sociopath? Whoo! Too much illegal, but "tolerated" cannibus, Mr Zarkon.

And mudslinging? You mean the rhetoric and vitriole you et al. shoot off on this website?
Here's an interesting question for those of you who "fear" for our First Amendment rights of speech: why do you hate the mudslinging? It's free speech, baby! Besides, we all know what you mean (Republicans mudsling; meanwhile Dems, Nader and other "Peaceloving intellectual Progressives" simply talk issues). I've never heard so much hate speech in my life. It's all from the mouths of liberals and Bush Haters.
Strange, I haven't heard a conservative call Kerry a Nazi, Fascist Sociopath waving a confederate flag(NAACP spokesman said that)and branding a finger on the nuclear button. I haven't heard any issues discussed here in the last week, either. Just a bunch of MUDSLINGING at our ELECTED President.

Have no fear Americans, under the leadership of the Republican Party, we'll bring the world together and singing in harmony faster than an ice cold coke (does this rattle you all? Did your coffee spill out your nostrils? Are youatthis instant screaming obscene words at me?). Kissy kissy..... Have a nice day.
"Besides, legalize everything and you'll see many more consequences than you may want to consider, or visualize. For every action, there's a reaction."

You tend to exaggerate, Neocon, because you'll notice I never (LOL) use the words never, always and everything. However, it's human nature to want to do what you're forbidden to do. You'd be surprised how less attractive something becomes when it's legal.
As for not hearing a conservative call Kerry a Nazi facist sociopath...well, duh!
And...those Texans sure do like the confederate flag. Much like your unwaivering belief in GW, the South still clings to the belief they won the Civil War.

"Have no fear Americans, under the leadership of the Republican Party, we'll bring the world together and singing in harmony faster than an ice cold coke...

You mean like you've been doing for the past 4 years?
(does this rattle you all? Did your coffee spill out your nostrils? Are youatthis instant screaming obscene words at me?).
Not a chance, Neocon! I'm too busy laughing!!!
"Kissy kissy..... Have a nice day".

Kissy Kissy? Are we back to gays, again?
Welcome back from the weekend neocon.

"I haven't heard any issues discussed here in the last week"

in an earlier post I wrote

"Two of these families have small children who are severely deformed
.......Uranium enriched munitions in populated areas.

you replied...

I'm sure you can find other families in Eastern Europe who are proud that the US stood up to the USSR; families in Bosnia who are glad the US arrived when your "caring" countries had your fingers up your ass and spinning around like bobbleheads.

Hmmm, very compassionate.

So my question to you is this.
How come it´s not ok for a woman to decide to terminate an
unwanted pregnancy, an event which occurs in HER body. But it is ok
for the US military to slaughter THOUSANDS of children and create an
environmental hazard thats going to last THOUSANDS of years. This is
"Pro-Life" ?

PLEASE DISCUSS (not avoid...deal with)
Zarq, It is safe for you to email me at the above email address. I'll then give you my real email address. I'm amused. I think Neocon thinks there's a love match going on. Kissy Kissy. :-)

Looking forward to his reply to your last email.
Peacemaker, thank you. You were supposed to laugh. Laughter is the best medicine. But get ready for another four years. I feel it coming.

Zarkon, when you pick issues, you sure do pick the complex ones.

It's true what I said; I stand by my opinions on Eastern Europe.
You can't possibly tell me that the Serbs were benevolent conquerors. Read your post again. Your anger is with Clark, and therefore, the United States that people are scarred and killed. You didn't mention your disgust with the hundreds of thousands raped, murdered and maimed by the Bosnian Serbs, who were no doubt encouraged by Milosevic.
The United Nations did nothing. NOTHING NOTHING. They condemned Croatia, if I recall for taking the war offensively to the Bosnian Serbs.
The US had to come in, without UN approval to do something.
I'm sorry, as are all of us that people got caught in the crossfire, but war doesn't choose its victims. That sounds harsh, but what's worse?

Rwanda was a perfect example. 500,000 slaughtered when the UN was perfectly aware. Yes, fingers up their asses. The US was also doing nothing (Clinton's fingers were elsewhere (LOL)).

My disgust on this issue was apparent during the presidential debates in 2000, as both Gore and Bush declared they would have done nothing in Rwanda. Well, according to what you wrote, at least there is no one in Rwanda dying of uranioum poisoning. They're just dead and buried in crude graves. You're right, I have no compassion for inaction. How can anyone WITH compassion say doing nothing would have been better? Many liberals agree that we should have done nothing in Serbia, Iraq, and perhaps even in Sudan, which is another slaughter waiting to happen (actually, I know Naum does). The UN is dragging in Sudan, but hopefully somethingwill happen. We can't (for obvious reasons).

We all know how Europe was utterly destroyed in WWII, but to say, as you seem to imply, that we should have stayed out would have led to an undescribable future. Fifty million people were killed; half were combatants, the rest innocents. HITLER is to blame for that war and the ensuing destruction to so many good people. Hitler, Hiroshito and Mussolini are to blame; not us.

Hundreds of thousands are buried in mass graves in Bosnia, Rwanda, and Iraq. These poor people weren't killed by the US. To blame it on us for TRYING to bring world security and regional stability to these countries is blatantly WRONG.
Blame the goddamn serbs and Milosevic for those poor children in your complex. They instigated the chaos.
Blame Saddam and the migrating terrorist psychotics for those innocent people killed in Iraq everyday. THEY are to blame.

Again, you say the US is slaughtering thousands and causing an environmental nightmare. My God, man. First, you exaggerate; second, you didn't mention Saddam at all. Enough said. I think you're getting my drift. Those freaks aren't freedom fighters, they're not fighting for a cause; they love to kill, they love the smell of death and mayhem.
Stop blaming America; blame the real killers and evildoers.

Now, to the pro-life argument. You and Peacemaker obviously agree that we should be able to do what we want as long as no one gets hurt.
I happen to subscribe to the very obvious fact that a baby in the womb is alive and well, and is, therefore HURT by the actions of the baby's host.
Abortion is wrong, but necessary sometimes (we all know what the reasons are); but not as a CHOICE. That's bullshit and wrong! Where's the compassion forlittle ones who never had a future outside the womb? Don't avoid it; address it. That's why Idon't sit on the fence on that topic. People are hurt, are extinguished and forgotten by beiung labelled as FETUSES; used for Stem Cell research. We kill thoughtlessly to saveothers? No sense, man.
War is wrong, but necessary to destroy those who intend to do evil. Tyrants, killers and psychopaths (not Bush) will always kill and destroy lives of innocent people if we all do nothing. That is what many people want. Is that better?

Peacemaker, here's an example of unintended consequence: Going to war. Innocents die, becoming victims in a fight against others. It is horrible, but which is worse, avoid that consequence, which leads to wholesale slaughter, slavery, poverty and death for hundreds of thousands, if not millions; or following through with prayers for those innocent victims in order to prevent more slaughter?
"Peacemaker, here's an example of unintended consequence: Going to war. Innocents die, becoming victims in a fight against others. It is horrible, but which is worse, avoid that consequence, which leads to wholesale slaughter, slavery, poverty and death for hundreds of thousands, if not millions; or following through with prayers for those innocent victims in order to prevent more slaughter?"

Of course there are times when we have to go to war...then there are times it could be avoided. However, it's interesting that you should put it that way. Conservatives aren't willing to help people at home but seem so concerned about those suffering in other countries. People in this country are going hungry, children (already born) are suffering and dying because of lack of nutrition or affordable health care, and the Republicans say they don't want to support welfare programs. I'm well aware that these programs are taken advantage of by lazy people who find it easier to stay home and watch TV than to get off their asses and get a job, but whose fault is that? The programs should be a little more careful in investigating the people receiving assistance, but why should those who truly need it be denied because of a few? There are, indeed, people who do need and deserve help...right here at home. Charity begins at home. Yes, innocent people are going to die in war. The question, here, is...is the war really necessary, or is it for political gain? War is good for the ecomony, but I don't want my son/daughter to die for the economy or for Bush to look good. We lost hundreds of thousand of innocents in Viet Nam, and it's a no-brainer that we shouldn't have been there. It was not a necessary war. If we cannot help the needy in our own country, then why are we so Hell-bent to save the rest of the world? Can we not just teach the rest of the world how to help themselves? Instead of sending boxes of food to other countries, why not send some volunteers with some hoes and shovels, seeds, etc., and teach the people how to be independent and grow their own food. I'm all for helping people, but I think we need to take care of our own before we go out and save the rest of the world. Some parts of the world don't want our help. Therefore, I don't think we should force our help upon them. Viet Nam is a perfect example of this. If we are really in a war against terrorism, why aren't we looking for the terrorists in our own country? They're out there, ya' know. That wouldn't gain us anything, politically or economically, that's why? No oil in Montana.

As for fetuses, I agree, and always have with you on the fact that a fetus is a human life. I'm against taking any human life. However, the cold, hard fact is that if abortion is illegal, you will not stop women from having them, any more than you can stop people from doing drugs...legal or otherwise. By making abortion illegal, you will be forcing women to the back alleys again and we'll have more dead women (along with the fetuses), more people in prison...because it's illegal...(don't forget your tax dollars going to support prisoners, each year), and what will you have changed with your law? Today, people have an informed choice. Many plan to have an abortion and after speaking with people who are there to help, often choose another route. It's their choice, however, not yours. Maybe the young mother who is forced to keep her baby may just have it in the bathroom at school dance, kill it, put it in the trash can and go back to the dance. If a girl doesn't want a child, she's going to get rid of it one way or another, your laws be damned! I agree with Zarquon on the point that you seem to have tunnel vision about certain subjects and seem unwilling to open your mind, or broaden your horizons to see the big picture and visualize the results of these laws.
As politics change, so do the laws. There's an old saying that goes: "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it". I only suggest that you learn from history so that we don't have to step back in time and repeat the same mistakes we've already made. You accuse me of being progressive...well, I prefer to progress than digress.
"Many liberals agree that we should have done nothing in Serbia, Iraq, and perhaps even in Sudan, which is another slaughter waiting to happen (actually, I know Naum does).

One more thing, Neocon. In discussing the current war, who gave Saddam the WMD? WE DID! We didn't seem to give a damn that he was using them on the Kurds and to torture and slowing kill his own people. We helped him do it....for some oil...I guess. Then, when he pissed off Daddy Bush, that's when the war started. Now Baby Bush is trying to get revenge and finish what daddy started. Oh, I know it's a tad more complicated than that, but if we're going to befriend these evildoers (as you call them) and supply them with the necessary weapons to commit these atrocities, why are we not to blame? Your post shows you adamantely feel that the U.S. isn't to blame for anything. You sound like a parent who says, "Not MY child". Well, yes, your child. This country IS to blame for many things. Giving Saddam WMD knowing what he was doing with them and doing nothing...was wrong, and speaking of being responsible for many innocent deaths...we ARE to blame!!
Peacemaker,

Guess who's back? I've been lurking for a while watching NeoCon kicking butt and taking names.

So what was it that pissed off "Daddy Bush"? Could it have been the fact that Iraq invaded a sovereign nation and tried to steal their oil? Somebody call Michael Moore, quick! The "We give Saddam WMD" crowd tends to leave out details, like the fact that Nations like Iran and Russia were huge threats to our way of life at that time. Things change, yet you want to make it like we gave him aid knowing he was going to use them for nafarious ends.

You are quick to come here and repeat lies like "We lost hundreds of thousand of innocents in Viet Nam, and it's a no-brainer that we shouldn't have been there. It was not a necessary war." Have you actually done any reading on the subject or do you get all of your info from TV and the Movies? You probably also believe that the only people who died in the war were poor minorities who weren't able to get out of serving because they weren't rich and white. You come on here spouting lots of "facts" that are nothing more than stereotypes. Those sort of "Everybody knows that all American GIs in Vietnam were baby killers" Talk about those who don't know history being doomed to repeat it. Learn the real truth about things like Vietnam before you come here spouting them as absolute truths.

So you agree that and unborn fetus is a human life and that we should do whatever we can to protect human life, right? But we should make it legal, because they are going to do it anyways... Why not make murder legal, hell make it state sponsered. People are going to go out and kill people, laws be damned. Why should we have them risk being killed by the inteded victim defending themselves. Every action has a consequence, why should we sponsor murder as a means of birth control? People need to learn to own up to the choices they make.

"Can we not just teach the rest of the world how to help themselves? Instead of sending boxes of food to other countries, why not send some volunteers with some hoes and shovels, seeds, etc., and teach the people how to be independent and grow their own food. I'm all for helping people, but I think we need to take care of our own before we go out and save the rest of the world. Some parts of the world don't want our help."

Why not just teach our OWN to take care of themselves! Hey what a novel idea! Instead of just giving them money for nothing, we could actually teach people to take care of themselves! Many conservatives believe that giving money to get people moving in a direction (Reagan "teach a man to fish") is the right idea, but making them feel like victims and giving free handouts just enables people more.
Beezle,
Why would you send people to a porno web site ---I clicked on your advice and almost got sick ! You have lost all credibility
Welcome back Kennysucks. You've been lurking too long.
"So what was it that pissed off "Daddy Bush"? Could it have been the fact that Iraq invaded a sovereign nation and tried to steal their oil? "

Haven't I said from the start it was all about oil??? And didn't you mean to use the term "our oil" instead of "their oil"?

" It was not a necessary war." Have you actually done any reading on the subject or do you get all of your info from TV and the Movies?"

I was over there! It's you who has read about it and watched TV. You can't tell the people who served over there what a necessary war it was. Try talking to Neocon.
"You probably also believe that the only people who died in the war were poor minorities who weren't able to get out of serving because they weren't rich and white."

No, actually, my brother, my brother-in-law, and some very close friends I grew up with died over there. All white, and mostly upper middle class.

"Those sort of "Everybody knows that all American GIs in Vietnam were baby killers" Talk about those who don't know history being doomed to repeat it. Learn the real truth about things like Vietnam before you come here spouting them as absolute truths."

We were called baby killers because indeed that did happen. We didn't kill them on purpose, and many of us have had to live with that horrible picture still playing in our heads....firing on a hut (we thought was full of Viet Cong) only to find it was full of women and children....yes, it did happen. When we returned, we didn't get a WWII welcome. We were spit on, ostrasized and totally unwelcome in our own country. We didn't start the war...we went over there like any American soldier goes to war...thinking we were patriotic men who were proudly serving our country. So, don't tell ME about Viet Nam!!
"Why not make murder legal, hell make it state sponsered."

Isn't that what we do? I believe we call it the Death Penalty.

There is a difference between sponsoring something and making it illegal. Cigarettes are legal for an adult to smoke, but beleive me, I don't see any one sponsoring them. Go ahead and make abortion illegal, and see what happens. I've been there; done that. It won't affect me. I'll never have the need to have an abortion.

"Many conservatives believe that giving money to get people moving in a direction (Reagan "teach a man to fish") is the right idea, but making them feel like victims and giving free handouts just enables people more."

First of all, I said to teach other countries how to take care of themselves...those countries who don't seem to be able to do so by themselves.
I didn't suggest handouts, I suggested sending people and supplies over to help.
As for the American Welfare system, some people are in need. The only thing we hear about the welfare system is that lazy, do-nothings are sitting on their ass collecting welfare. This is true, but I wanted to bring some light to the honest people who do need welfare (yes, handouts). The ones who cannot physically or mentally hold down a job. Someday it might be you. Enabling alcoholics, drug addicts, etc., I'm against, but enabling people to eat and have a roof over their heads and health care, who are unable (for whatever reason to do it themselves) I'm am for.
Chris:
I, too, went to Beezle's site and at first, I thought the same thing...it's not a porno website. You should have stayed long enough to investigate. Why don't you give it another shot.
Oops!
Just went back to check on Beezle's suggested site, and it is a porn site, but it's not the porn Beezle sent us to watch...it's the little movie about the 'gay bar'. You don't need to look at the porn or click on the links...the movie is right square in the middle of the page. Taking Beezle's side, I believe it was meant as humor.
Thank God there's another neocon on this site, Kerrysucks.

Peacemaker: He had a great point regarding the abortion discussion. You admit that the unborn islife and yet you say laws be damned. Not good reasoning. I, as a logical thinker (I know, start laughing) don't think an amendmentwill do anything, because our Republican leaders will be fighting that issue and that issue alone after passage. I do believe, however, that those who DO think abortion is wrong should be out there saying it and not be saying, "Laws be Damned". I'm not close-minded; okay in saome cases I am. We all are in some regards; I've decided no to sit on fences anymore.

Vietnam is an event we all can talk about. We appreciate the fact you were there. We appreciate and honor your service. Many of us today would never dram of calling returningvets baby-killers. It was wrong then, and wrong now.
But there are many veterans who do feel they fought for a great cause in Vietnam. In fact, some poll taken indicated a majority would go back, because they feel so strongly (uhhh..don't know the poll).
None of us served in WWII, but I have no qualm about discussing it and its significance. Korea was also, I believe, a noble cause.

Your general history of Saddam, the US and WMD's doesn't do this discussion justice. The convenient two-dimensional discussions, especially on the Cold War and the complexities of dealing with an oppressive empire and the emerging third world regimes aren't useful and never were.
George HW Bush made one huge mistake after the Gulf War. He allowed Saddam to keep helicopters, which he used to destroy the emerging resistance. The UN was supposed to keep an eye on him (numerous resoulutions).
But even so, even if your generalizations on Saddam were true; shouldn't we correct our mistakes by getting rid of the madman?
More later, gotta work.
Peacemaker,

Thank you for your service, what unit and where in country were you?

Neocon,
It is has been refreshing reading your posts! Meaga dittos! (that drives libs crazy).
I'm all for getting rid of the madman!! I think we did that, already. Now, getting the real culprit of 9/11 would be nice. (If we do it will be right before election...the same time gas prices will drop)....pay attention and then tell me later if I was right or wrong.

I wish you'd understand what I'm saying re: abortion laws, but it's apparent you don't, so there's nothing more I can say on the issue. Go ahead, like I said, and make the law, AGAIN!!! Maybe it will be your daughter or granddaughter that gets butchered. I pray not. But it WILL be somebody's daughter or granddaughter, as it was in the past, and I hate to see the same mistakes made over again.

Much has been said about Viet Nam...pros and cons, but unless you were there, don't presume to know what you're talking about just because you've read something somewhere.
No, I wasn't in WWII, either, but my father was, and all I really know about it is what he told me, and what history has told me....if I can believe all the history...which is the point. History is not always accurate.
You are deluding yourself if you don't think that the U.S. knew just exactly what kind of man Saddam was, so what was our REAL reason for giving him these weapons? Why didn't WE go over and protect them (like we always do) instead of handing a madman an arsenel of WMD? At the very least, you have to admit it wasn't too bright.

By the way, have you been reading the latest news abour Iran and the line they're drawing in the sand...so to speak?
We can only push people so far, and they're going to retaliate.

As as pyschologist, I think I understand people. That's why I can see the writing on the wall. Well, it's not just because of that. It's also because the same writings have been on the same wall. It's just that each new generation forgets these things. Hitler's mayhem, to your generation, is something that happened a long time ago, and couldn't possibly happen again. That's where you're wrong. The Germans didn't think it could happen to them and thought that Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced bread. They were being duped. They didn't even know what hit them, and the really sad thing is that neither do you.
Thank you Kerrysucks...I'd shorten to Kerry, but don't think you'd appreciate it. :-)
It's really heartwarming to hear "Thanks for your service". It's too bad it took nearly 40 years to hear that.
To be precise, I was in the 1st batallion 5th infantry (mechanized) in the 25th infantry division. I was many places (I served two terms) but to name a few, Cuchi, Tayninh and a teeny little place called "phuc mi". We, of course, called it (pardon my French) Fuck me!
While there, I received the Silver star, 2 bronze stars with V devices (for valor) and 2 purple hearts.
Zarq,
Hope I haven't scared you off for some reason. Wish you'd email me. WE NEED TO TALK!
P.S. Kerry Sucks...I was a tunnelrat. Know what that is?
If you want to understand what I've been talking about...about propaganda and how easy it is to get people to believe what the government wants them to believe, please visit this site. It is extremely frightening to see what others are being taught, especially since it is about us.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stor...

How easy it is to warp minds!!
Kerrysucks: Mega Dittos Indeed. You're a Great American!
Peacemaker: "As as pyschologist, I think I understand people. That's why I can see the writing on the wall. Well, it's not just because of that. It's also because the same writings have been on the same wall. It's just that each new generation forgets these things. Hitler's mayhem, to your generation, is something that happened a long time ago, and couldn't possibly happen again. That's where you're wrong. The Germans didn't think it could happen to them and thought that Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced bread. They were being duped. They didn't even know what hit them, and the really sad thing is that neither do you."

Hello????? What do you think was happening in Rwanda, Iraq, and now Sudan? We're all quite aware of what's going on. Again, I have to ask with incredulity...are you suggesting Bush is an early Hitler, waiting to destroy the opposition and creating a secret force of militia to start executing his enemies? What does this mean ....Hitler's mayhem is occurring everywhere...the National Geographic last month had a story on Iraq: one member of a human rights group estimated upwards of millions of citizens "disappeared" in Saddam's reign. Millions!!!! Unsubstantiated, but we have proof of hundreds of mass graves to show the pathological nature of the madman. WE, the UNited States of America, stopped the man. Somehow, as a result, we are deluded to support Bush (who obviously defeated a murderer and a threat to world security for OIL?). If that's the case, I'd rather be delusional, Peacemaker (You'll notice that once again, you're inserting crude rhetoric in your posts again: I'm a delusional young punk who doesn't have the right, or intelligence to say shit about preceding history).
Again on Vietnam, much of what I read is from other veterans of the war. That's how many of us have. The difference is in their perspectives. Yours versus others (And again,Peacemaker, thank you for your service. No doubt you were very bravely and fought as a true patriot and American).

Again on Saddam, when did I say we didn't know his pathology? I'm not deluded. I will admit, Peacemaker, thatwhat was done was absolutely necessary under complex circumstances. I'm looking at the context of events.
The much more friendly Shah regime in Iran was toppled, replaced by the much more oppressive Khomeini regime that was also getting alot of shit from USSR, as well as encouraging war on the western world. In the words of Reagan, "we had to play the cards dealt us (by Jimmy Carter's incredible incompetence)."
The only option to combat a terrorist breeder and USSR ally was to get in the gutter with Saddam and help him out in his war on Iran.
The sad thing is the Cold War did that to us. We had to make unholy alliances with those we normally would have shunned. That's the price of policing the world for the last 80 years.

Iran is getting ready to implode. The democrat from New Jersey (Mr Andrews) has already called on the US to support the insurgents, who want to topple the Khomeini lunatics and start over. How to support? Force as a last resort. We could start with many other ways, including getting the UN to start paying attention. If the news you speak of is a threat from Iran, I say, Bullshit. Iran is no China. They'll fall apart with encouragement from usand the UN (maybe).

And Peacemaker, I've mentioned this before. You obviously miss my point on abortion, gay marriage and gay adoptions as well. C'est La Vie. That's why we don't see eye to eye.
So, on abortion; gay rights...we are at a stale-mate...ok. I can live with that.

"...the National Geographic last month had a story on Iraq: one member of a human rights group estimated upwards of millions of citizens "disappeared" in Saddam's reign. Millions!!!! Unsubstantiated, but we have proof of hundreds of mass graves to show the pathological nature of the madman. "

That's what he did with the WMD we gave him. All I said was don't you think we should accept some of the blame...and by the way, it's not unsubstantiated.

I'm not REALLY calling Bush Hitler (although I can see comparisons), but it seems Korean children are being taught THAT in school. However, I just think he's abusing his power, and isn't intelligent enough to have the power in the first place. It's my opinion, and that of many others, including some Republicans who voted for him in 2000 that GWB is a lousy president, that he has lied time and time again to the American people, and that he definitely has his own agenda and that he isn't really concerned about all those things he purports to be concerned about. He's had 4 years to show us, and he's shown us. He's starting up again assuring us this and that...but it's election time, so what do you expect? I heard his rhetoric 4 years ago. Didn't mean shit then, doesn't mean shit now.
Other than 9/11, (and that was a terrorist act, not a war) no war has been fought on American soil...and don't bring up the Civil War...you know what I mean. I think that time might just be coming. We're making too many enemies around the world, and maybe Iran can't do us in, but what if they join forces with the other countries who hate our guts? Don't be so confident that we are inpenetrable.
Hope you read the article I sent you to. I find that a tad scary, and you should, too.
Neocon,
I couldn't have said it better myself! (Saddam etc)

Peacemaker that link, I'm confuseed, was that the DNC website??? It sounds like the same crap as the DNC is spewing. You are always saying that we are "deluded" but what about the Michaels Moore rheteric that you seem to believe?

My father was in Vietnam, I don't know exactly know what unit becasue he very rarely talks about it. He has maybe mentioned it on three separate occasions.On one of the rare times he stated that he didn't feel that we shouldn't have been there, and neither do people that I know whose parents are refugees from Vietnam. Vietnam was a horrible place to live! Like Iraq!

My question to you is; why are you so willing to believe the Michael Moores of the world, but think that everything the government says is a lie?
Look at what Bush has been accused of; he lied to go to war, he is after oil, no wmds etc. the Senate Intell report just came out and Bush dIdn't lie, the CIA had some faulty info, if it was about oil we would have taken it by now! The UK is standing by its claim that Saddam was trying to buy uranium in Africa. So is it all governments or just ours? The whole world believed that there were WMDs and Saddam was a madman. I believe the WMDs are still to be found. They are turning up in other countries, and the Polish army found sarin gas and intercepted terrorist who were looking for it.
Isn't that the whole point? They bombed the USS Cole becasue they hate us? 9/11 becasue they hate us? So what is the answer to sit here and do nothing? We did that for 8 years during the Clinton years! Terrorists want us dead! Europeans hated us long before Bush too!
"Peacemaker that link, I'm confuseed, was that the DNC website??? It sounds like the same crap as the DNC is spewing."

What's so confusing? It's actually from 60 minutes, and it's a story about a newswoman, I think, who went to a Korean school and listened to what was being taught there. They're using the book about Anne Frank, only the children are being taught that Anne Frank was a coward for hiding and THEY (the children of Korea) will fight to kill the Americans...which they believe they HAVE to do in order to gain peace in the world. It's not confusing! I didn't see DEMOCRAT written anywhere.

My father was in Vietnam, I don't know exactly know what unit becasue he very rarely talks about it.

I can understand why. Maybe you should ask him.

Read your posting above re: whether he thought we should or shouldn't be in Viet Nam...THAT was confusing.
"I believe the WMDs are still to be found."

Well, even YOUR own Republican government has admitted they made a mistake about them. I guess Osama bin Laden is still to be found, as well.

I never said I believed everything that Michael Moore said...however, I do believe video tapes I see of George Bush saying what George Bush said. It's not Michael Moore's fault that George Bush says things on TV and at public functions that make him sound like an idiot...he IS an idiot. Michael Moore didn't show that...GW showed that.

I don't believe ALL of anything anybody tells me. I'd like to think I'm smart enough to decide for myself what part of what you say has truth and what part of what you say is questionable. The questionable part...I research, and find out, to the best of my ability what the real truth is. I don't just read things and say, "Oh, that's in the newspaper, so it has to be true".

"if it was about oil we would have taken it by now!"
LOL We've been taking it for years. Where have you been???
"Terrorists want us dead! Europeans hated us long before Bush too!"

Ya' know, if everybody in the class hated your kid, wouldn't you ask yourself why? Would you say, "Well, it can't be my kid, so it's obviously the entire class's fault?
I sure hope not.

Wonder why everybody hates us so much, since we've done everything right and, as Neocon puts it, we're been the world's savior. Could it be that we are not perceived that way by others but only ourselves? Could it be that maybe other countries (like Viet Nam) don't want our help...didn't ask for our help, and resent our help? Could it be that they perceive that we ARE trying to take over the world because we keep imposing ourselves, and our beliefs on others? You might want to give that some thought.

I feel it's just like the Evalgelistic Christians in this country who want to impose their beliefs on me. It won't work, so I will buck. I have my own beliefs...my own religion, and when I perceive I'm being forced into a corner, I'm liable to come out fighting. I think that's human nature, and people in Korea and Europe and all those other little countries that hate us probably experience the same kind of human nature.
That's why I've said over and over, that this country cannot control the rest of the world...and be loved. We have gotten rid of Saddam for the Iraqis...why are we still there?
Why don't we let them settle their own problems, now that they're free from Saddam's tyrany? I'd be interested in your perspective.
Could it have anything to do with making sure we still get their oil? Could it have anything to do with not wanting to let go of our control? Just curious as to why you think we need to still be there...now that we have solved their problem and saved them from the "madman".
Peacemaker,
I was making a joke about the DNC! I just menat it sounds like the hate fest they say about Bush all the time! Like he's Hitler, a warmonger etc..... Yawn!

The rpublicans admitted there wasn't any stock piles of WMD! I just read an article the other day that said the Israli intel said right before the war Saddam sent a bunch of weapons over to Syra. We have found some WMDs! We just removed two tons of uranium from Iraq, the Czeech government foiled a plan where Zarquwi (sp) was going to use chimical weapons to kill 80,000 people in Jordon. Zarquwi is from Iraq! The Polish army found missles of Sarin. In May we found another missle containing Sarin and mustard gas. Hello??? they had them.. Maybe not in a stock pile but they are floating around! It makes sense too that Saddam paniced and sent them out of the country. Oh and Bin Laden's associate just surrendered! That is good news! If you read section 15 of the 9/11 commission report it says that we are winning the war on terrorism! We have broken them down. At least Bush is doing something other than playing hide the cigar with a young girl!

What I was trying to say is to refugees and the poor people that had to FLEE the country they are thrilled that we went over there!
OH! it wasn't the republicans it was the CIA who made the mistake! Maybe you should research and read some articles other that leftist propoganda! Another thing my dad said is get your info from more that one source! Now a days really, 60 minutes might as well be the DNC. YOu need to broaded you horizons and read some stuff from the right. I read left wing stuff all the time, and it amazes me how all their conspiracy theories always trun out to be wrong!

If we have been taking their oil all along they why did go back? HMMMM??????

I just read your last post! LOL! Did it ever occur to you that we are the richest nation in the world and a superpower! They don't like us becasue we have everything and they have shit!
We are not taking over the world we are leaving Iraq in a better conditon then they were in! You seem to enjoy your freedom, why can't they have theirs? I don't see people from all over the world fleeing to any other country but ours! so if they hate us so much why do they hate us?
I mean if they hate us so much then why do they want to be here?
"I mean if they hate us so much then why do they want to be here?"

I guess it depends. Some want to be here to get an education, learn all about our country and learn to fly planes.....We accommodate them with the knowledge and give them the weapons or the wherewithall to attack us.

Others really don't hate us and came here for a better life...freedom, education, better jobs, etc.

I guess you'd have to ask them.
First of all, tell your dad I wasn't researching what Korea was teaching its children. I wasn't researching Anne Frank. I just happened upon the article, and IF it's the truth, and neither one of us can say it isn't...it's a little scary. I just sent you to see it. I didn't write it. I didn't go to Korea, I just read the article and wanted to share it.
The article wasn't about Democrats calling Bush Hitler. It was about what children in Korea are being taught. It seems Kim what's his name II is a dictator, and HE is teaching his people to hate and fear us, but as I said, I just read it.
I may be ignorant, but I didn't see any left/right in this article. Do you see left/right in everything you read? I read about a man who set fire to his wife/girlfriend and her 3 kids. I didn't see any left/right in it. It was just a news article I read. What does left/right have to do with the teachings in Korea, anyway???

Are we the only country allowed to have WMD?
If so, then I can understand the fear in the other countries. Personally, it would be ideal if NOBODY had any WMD. BUT, we are a superpower...and we have to have it, but nobody else can...right?

"If we have been taking their oil all along they why did go back? HMMMM??????"

WHAT??
BTW, since your dad's involved in this, did ya' ask him about Viet Nam? I'm curious if he can/will tell you why he hasn't talked about it to his son.

When my dad came back from WWII, he talked about it all the time. He's still talking about it. There's a big difference....just wonder if you're dad will tell you what it is.
Neocon, I meant to address this before, so I'll do it now.
"Crime rates, Mafia, Prohibition, and tobacco bans.....whoa slow down and look at the picture. Normal people crusaded for prohibition, not the fundamentalists. Tobacco bans? Those are the Nader lovers (Tempe) and psycho doctors who want to govern our health."

I may be delusional, but isn't it the government that's banning smoking in public places? Isn't it the government that makes things illegal? Nader lovers and psycho doctors don't make laws.
They can pressure the government into making them, if the government allows itself to be pressured by Nader lovers and psycho doctors.

Prohibition was due to religious fanatics (mainly women, at the time) who believed that the drink was evil!! But only the government could make it a law.

Normal people? Well, as a psychologist, I'm not sure what a Normal person is. What's your definition of "normal people"?
Your argument on the mafia is also 2-Dimensional. They existed before and after prohibition. They flourished here, because our Justice System is the best for all (including criminals and the mafia). Sure they profited highly under prohibition, but that was a factor they took advantage of, it didn't create the Mafia.

If you go back and re-read my posting, I didn't say anything about CREATE. I said the mafia "took hold"....maybe I should have said "gained a strong hold" but I never said it was created then. Probibition just gave them the power to become what they've become today.

Our justice system is the best for all? Well, if you're a criminal, I guess. I bet OJ agrees with you on that one!

Speaking of 2 dimensional, when you become a victim of a violent crime, we'll talk about this again....if you're able.
I guess I should have put a warning on the link I posted. Sorry if I ofended anyone. I just thought it was a cool video and a great song, given Georgieboys anti-gay stance. The only thing that would have made it any better is if he and Tony Blair kissed at the end. When I seen it the first time, I laughed so hard beer came out my nose. Once again, sorry for the offensive content. I will refrain from posting questionable links, but if anyone is intrested in seeing more, feel free to email me. Beelzebubba666@aol.com
Ominous email address bubba :-)
Well, I thought it was cute. I ignored the rest of the site. Not into porno...and yes, a little kissy, kissy would have made it even funnier.
I think I've scared Zarq clean off this site. Don't know if he thinks I'm gay or what.
I get that alot regarding the addy. I guess some people think satan is gonna jump out of the moniter and get em. Oh well. That video is really two fold. I makes fun of GWB's anti gay stance, and it shows how the media can cut up anything to get the results they want to spread half truths and lies. That and its funny as hell.
Peacemaker wrote: "I feel it's just like the Evalgelistic Christians in this country who want to impose their beliefs on me. It won't work, so I will buck. I have my own beliefs...my own religion, and when I perceive I'm being forced into a corner, I'm liable to come out fighting. I think that's human nature, and people in Korea and Europe and all those other little countries that hate us probably experience the same kind of human nature.
That's why I've said over and over, that this country cannot control the rest of the world...and be loved. We have gotten rid of Saddam for the Iraqis...why are we still there?
Why don't we let them settle their own problems, now that they're free from Saddam's tyrany? I'd be interested in your perspective."

First: We're still there, just as we were in Germany and Japan for years (and still in Germany, by the way). Rush posted NY Times headlines from 1947 with similar posts as today:"Polls show most germans want US out"; "Germans appreciate the US, but want autonomy". I said before and will say it again: we'll be there at least another 5 years, or so. With help from NATO, maybe faster. We're still in Bosnia by the way.

You're wrong about the prohibition thing again. It was a feminist group who later partnered with christian groups. The feminists at the time thought alcohol was the reason for divisiveness in men and women issues.
Later, Unions got on board, as well as the Socialist Party (early 1900's). It got steam from there. They were your average christian americans (not Catholic-we love our Irish beer). Protestants, Union bosses (not the workers, obviously), Socialists and feminists. NOT fundamentalists.

"I may be delusional, but isn't it the government that's banning smoking in public places? Isn't it the government that makes things illegal? Nader lovers and psycho doctors don't make laws.
They can pressure the government into making them, if the government allows itself to be pressured by Nader lovers and psycho doctors."

Your post suggested fundamentalists were responsible for tobacco bans, as you went straight from prohibition to tobacco. But listen to what you said. You just contradicted all your rhetoric on fundamentalists.

The government is the People; therefore, it IS the Naderites and PC freaks causing the bans. With soccer mom support and hippies who smoke dope, but not cigs, yes, the government will pass bans (generalized use of lingo). That's the way of this country.
Your analogy, of government that you wrote would also explain prohibition, etc., not fundamentalists. You didn't mean that did you?

Wouldn't you agree that our Justice System is best in the world? We're guaranteed against government witch hunts, and gang justice. How could you disagree? Criminals take advantage of our system and that's why there is so much crime vis a vis China, Egypt and those who'll chop off hands, johnson's etc. for crimes.
By the way, Peacemaker, you cussed! Good job!

On the lighter side: What did YOU mean by kissy kissy?
Peacemaker,

I was making a joke! I was commenting on how much the Korean government was like the DNC and touting the same BS.

Sorry my oil comment got jumbled! What I menat to say is, if we have been taking oil all along why would we need to go back?

My dad doesn't like to speak of the war very much at all. You are actually the first Vet I have ever heard dicuss it so openly. When my dad does talk about it he told me some of the horrilbe things the North Vietnamese did to two little 7 or 8 year old boys who talked to the American GIs. They found them dead in the trash a few days later. He won't speak about the horrible things he saw. He feels guilty for surviving while his "brothers" died around him.

You know the reason why people come to America! Becasue it is the best damn country in the world! The ones that don't like us are sippin on the Haterade becasue they can't get here!

Are we the only country allowed to have WMD?

If so, then I can understand the fear in the other countries. Personally, it would be ideal if NOBODY had any WMD. BUT, we are a superpower...and we have to have it, but nobody else can...right?

Other countries can have them but we just don't want them in the hands of countries with "UN Sanctions". LOL
Neocon..you keep saying "fundamentalist". I've never mentioned them. I'm assuming you're a fundamentalist because you've been so protective of them and have inserted the word where I have not(except when mentioning the Evangelistic Christians). Referring to prohibition, I said, Christians, women...and people. From what you said, I wasn't wrong afterall. I didn't use the word 'suffragettes', or temperance, but I'm aware that they had a great deal to do with prohibiton. It's all whatever is politically correct at the time. Get enough women/people to complain about something, and they'll be a law. As for Irish Catholics...I am one, and we all love to drink. However, during prohibition, we couldn't could we? Well, I'm sure we did...speakeasy's, etc., BUT it was against the law!! Therefore, we Catholics and others who liked to imbibe were committing a crime when we took a drink...just as we are today when we smoke a joint. They didn't think it was evil then, and I don't think it's evil, now. It IS against the law, though, but then so is not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. Sometimes, using my common sense and sense of vision, when no one else is at the intersection, I just glide on through, without making a complete stop.

Yes, I would agree that our justice system is the best in the world...but sometimes best could be better. I'm only expressing my opinions on here about how things could be better and what I see as wrong. That doesn't mean that I don't love my country or that I don't think it's the best system there is, even though it's got a lot of flaws. The fact that I can come on here and bitch (another cuss word) about what I DO feel is wrong is a sure sign that the system is a good one. I, however, can see parts of it collapsing, and like Zarquon said, earlier, I just don't want to see it fall apart.

I think sometimes Neocon that either I'm not writing correctly or you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, because we seem to be agreeing on certain aspects of my postings that you seem to think we're arguing about. I give up!
To me, Evangelistic Christians are fundamentalists, and yes, while talking about them, I'm talking about fundamentalists, but wasn't referring to them, intentionally in any thing else I was saying.
Why are we still in Germany? (LOL)
Oh, what did *I* mean when *I* said "kissy, kissy"??? YOU are the one who first said, "Kissy Kissy". Beezlebubba said he thought the little movie on the website would have been funnier if Bush and Blair had kissed at the end. I was just making light of your earlier comment by saying that yes, a kissy kissy might have made it funnier. I assumed your original remark of "kissy kissy" was directed at me when I asked for Zarqoun's email address. I thought maybe you thought I was trying to get up close and personal when it was really because we were discussing some things that I thought would be better discussed...not taking up time and space on this forum. Besides, I had something personal I wanted to tell him that I didn't want to put on a public site. I still wish he'd email me, but I think we've scared him off.
Kerrysucks...I understand why your dad doesn't want to discuss it. It's very painful. I feel, however, that discussing painful things helps one heal. That's just me, of course. You're father has to handle things in his own way. There were horrible atrocities going on over there. More than not, they put their own children in harms way. They even prostituted their children...and I mean children...not teenagers. It was a sick war, in a sick country where nobody won.
You didn't tell me if you did or didn't know what a tunnelrat was. It's the guy they send in first. I go into a tunnel or a hole, and if I get shot or blown to bits, the rest of the company knows not to go in...get it?
It was a fun job.
BTW, not everybody wants to be an American. Some people are happy living in their own countries. I have some very close friends in other countries who are happy there and don't wish to leave THEIR homeland....even when they have troubles...just as we don't want to leave ours when we have troubles. We try to ban together and try to either fix it or overcome it....whatever. This is our home. Others feel the same way about their homes, as well.
Beezlebubba...I think that's funny about your addy, as you said. I went to the grocery store just the other day, for a couple small things, and at the last minute I grabbed a TV guide. It came to $6.66. The woman behind me yelled, "Get something else, get something else"!!! She thought I'd be damned to Hell if I paid a bill for $6.66. LOL (She's probably a fundamentalist).
Peacmaker,
I am sorry I forgot to tell you that I did know what a tunnelrat was, my dad said it was a good reason not to be the smallest guy! That was a gutsy job! It was probably the worst job you could have had. I asked my sister and she said that my dad was in "Ole Reliable" 9th infantry. He was a combat engineer. He was there during the Tet offensive in 1967-68. I agree with you that my dad should talk about it. Again I respect you for your service.

I think the atrocities is why we should have gone, we can't just sit back and let crazy men do horrible things to people.
I think I am in way over my head at this board. I haven't taken so many notes since school.
I think someone posted something earlier about Texans, and our love for GWB. Well, I live in Texas, own a pick up truck, a dog and a few guns, and I voted for Gore. Aint that strange? I don't think gun conrtol and abortion will ever be taken out of anyones platform. If they ever loose that plank, what are they going to run on?
I may be young and naive, but I just can't change my opnions on our current president. If you go digging around, you can find some pretty scary stuff. I just found information linking GWB to Salem Bin Laden back in 1979. It seems he (Bin Laden) was an investor in ol' Georgies company Arbusto Energy. There is more to it than that, and he was one of seventeen other siblings of Osama's. So its not like they played golf.
I agree that gas prices will come down before the election, and there are many factors in that, not just Bush, so I don't put much stock in that.
But I will go one better than that. I bet that right before the election, the military is going to pull Osma out of some hole in the desert, much like they did Sadam. But I think they already have him in custoday somewhere, and he is ,parden the pun, Bush's ace in the hole. I know that sounds nutty, but at this point I don't put anything past them.
If that isn't a rambling mess, I don't know what is.
Evangelists, Fundamentalists, yadda yadda yadda...that is what you meant. Look, you mentioned only evangelists when you talked of prohibition, tobacco, etc...you said you were tired of evangelists...oopsy...you DID say Fundamentalists!!!
Please read: "I'm frankly tired of having to give up freedoms to please those religious fundamentalists that are out to elect people they can manipulate...like Bush...so that we are all forced to live under their religious ideals, while they themselves are out doing the same things they're preaching against. Ex: Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, and those we haven't caught yet."
I was simply being an argumentative SOB and starting an argument like I always do. Come on...who would you bitch with otherwise (laugh)!!

BTW, I'm a proud Irish Catholic. Nice to meet you brother...I'm not a fundamentalist and you know that if I were, I would simply say you were going to Hell (I'm not that crazy to be a fundamentalist, watching Channel 21 feverishly to get saved).
The kissy kissy thing is from my previous job. Not a gay thing, and not hinting you were gay. My friends, talking like a typical construction worker would say goodbye with a kissy kissy. All in good fun. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
BTW, Zarkon is gone because of my genius with words. I convinced him of his errors and set himn on his feet. He's probably reading up on Margaret Thatcher right now (As you read this, think of Barney Fife pulling up his pants with a confident sniffle: "yeup! sniff".
It's hard to make jokes on a stupid computer.
screen.
Kerrysucks
Amen, fellow neocon...The US in the last century played a crucial role in changing this worlds for the better. We weren't perfect, but we succeeded.
Neocon,
You know it! The whole world comes running to the good ole USA for EVERYTHING! Then when we save their asses they tell us how horrible we are! Including the libs!

P.S. Maybe you drove Zarkon to listen to Rush! It is a amazing what a dose of the truth can do! These people and their Michael Moore conspiracy theories! Good Lord!
"BTW, Zarkon is gone because of my genius with words. I convinced him of his errors and set himn on his feet."

Now that IS a good joke. You are indeed very nimble in your ability
to parrot the official lies. You been attending "spin doctor classes?"

To get back to my point about killing children. Seems you are saying
that It´s ok for The US government, merely "regrettable". But when
an individual is faced with a personal, life altering situation such as
an unwanted pregnancy it´s WRONG.
See, when you give individuals the freedom to take such decisions
you are also FORCING them to take personal responsibility for those
decisions and the actions that result from them. That´s a good thing.
Your way, forces people to either OBEY the laws you want and quite
possibly destroy their life plans. OR to use unregulated,"underground"
abortionists, and this can be catastrophic. So kindly stop laying your
"I know best" preaching on us. If you believe abortion is WRONG don´t
use it.

I´m NOT exaggerating the numbers. In your list of justifications for
taking away individual rights you studiously decline to mention
Panama, East Timor BIAFRA Venezuela......and on and on. check your
history without wearing your blinkers this time. There is unfortunately a vast pool of shit happening on our small planet so it´s
easy for you to be selective, drawing attention away from Americas
crimes and LIES about those crimes. I´m attempting to point out the
stuff you don´t want to deal with because it upsets your propaganda
apple cart.
Maybe you remember an incident from the first Gulf war....the story
about IRAQUI troops "snatching babies from incubators in a Kuwaiti
nursing home, and killing them". There was even a young Kuwaiti girl
"witness ""interviewed" tearful before the "NEWS" cameras. Well it turned out the girl was a member of the KUWAITI ROYAL FAMILY and
she wasn´t even IN Kuwait at the time. It never happened, the people who made this propaganda got caught red handed, the corporate media dropped the story but it´s not forgotten. Every frame of the footage faked every word of the "report" untrue. Invented in America, made in
America by a PR COMPANY!!!! This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Glad you mentioned MUSSOLINI, better remember how HIS life ended
because YOU and YOURS look like you´re heading down the same
road. He did however leave us a rare jewel of honesty. I can only
quote it from memory but the essence of what he said was.........

" FACISM SHOULD BETTER BE NAMED CORPORATISM FOR IT IS ALWAYS THE
CLOSE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOVERNMENTS AND LARGE POWERFUL
CORPORATIONS"
This is what "UN-SPUN" NEWS LOOKS LIKE....remember where
you read it first...from zarquontheloud NOT FOXCNNCBS

 Report:

With tanks coming through the gate. U.S. soldiers storm an apartment
building looking for terrorists.  Sometimes during such roundups the
soldiers also arrest children.  What happens to the children? About
that the military gives no information. We investigate, as it happens,
through informants.
One of them, who is knowledgeable about these things, is Sergeant
Samuel Provance from  U.S. Army Intelligence.  For half a year he was
stationed in the notorious Abu Ghraib torture-prison.  Today, five
months later, we meet with Sergeant Provance in Heidelberg.
His superiors have strictly forbidden him from reporting to journalists
about what he experienced in Abu Ghraib. Yet Provance wants to talk
about it nonetheless. Pangs of conscience plague him. He tells us about
one 16-year-old, whom he himself had to lead away.
 

“He was full of fear, very alone.  He had the thinnest little arms that
I have ever seen.  His whole body shook. His wrists were so thin that
we could not put handcuffs on him. As soon as I saw him for the first
time and led him to the interrogation, I felt sorry for him. The
interrogation specialists doused him with water and put him in a truck.
Then they drove with him throughout the night, and at that time it
was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his
likewise imprisoned father. With him [the father] they had tried out
other interrogation methods.  But they had not succeeded in making him
talk.  The interrogation specialists told me that after the father had
seen his son in that condition, it broke his heart. He wept and
promised to tell them what they wanted to know.”
The son however remained in custody, and the 16-year-old was put in with the adults. Yet Provance reported also about a special department, expressly for children.  A secret children's wing in the horror prison of Abu Ghraib.
One person, who has seen the children's wing with his own eyes, is the
journalist Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz.  Our correspondent met him some
week ago in Baghdad. The Iraqi TV reporter related how he himself was
arrested arbitrarily by the Americans while shooting film and spent 74
days in Abu Ghraib.
"There I saw a camp for children.  Young, under the age of puberty. In
this camp were certainly hundreds of children.  Some of them have been
released, others are definitely still in there."
From his solitary cell in the adults' wing, Suhaib heard a perhaps
12-year-old girl weeping.  Later he learned that her brother was on the
third floor of the prison.  One or two times, says Suhaib, he saw her
himself.
In the night, according to Suhaib, they were with her in her cell. 
The girl shreeked out to the other prisoners and called out to her brother.
 "She was beaten.  I heard her call: 'They have undressed me.  They
have poured water over me.'"
Daily, says Suhaib, one heard her crying and wimpering. Many of the
prisoners wept when they heard her. Suhaib reported also about a sick
15-year-old youth.  They chased him up and down the corridor with heavy
water cannisters. For so long until he collapsed from
exhaustion, says Suhaib. Then they brought in his father, also a
prisoner. He had a hood over his head. From shock the youth collapsed
once again.

 O-Ton, Samuel Provance, US-Sergeant:
Neocon, "It's hard to make jokes on a stupid computer screen." Yes, it is, which often leads us to get defensive or misunderstand someone's intent. Apparently I did use the word fundamentalist, but only referring to those Evanelistic Christians mentioned above. Being an Irish Catholic, I KNOW you're not a religious fundamentalist, and was never (even before I knew you were a Catholic) accusing you of being one.

Kerrysucks: I hate to be the one to tell you, but as in many wars (probably most) those horrible atrocities were not just committed by the Vietnamese. It's funny what war does to people. I'll just end it there.

P.S. Guess we didn't lose Zarq, afterall. Maybe like you, KS, he's been lurking. :-)
"Your way, forces people to either OBEY the laws you want and quite possibly destroy their life plans. OR to use unregulated,"underground"
abortionists, and this can be catastrophic. So kindly stop laying your "I know best" preaching on us. If you believe abortion is WRONG don´t
use it."

AMEN!

"check your history without wearing your blinkers this time. There is unfortunately a vast pool of shit happening on our small planet so it´s easy for you to be selective, drawing attention away from Americas crimes and LIES about those crimes. I´m attempting to point out the stuff you don´t want to deal with because it upsets your propaganda apple cart."

AMEN AGAIN!! This last line is the best thing written since this forum opened. Sorry I didn't say it myself. I think I did, but not nearly as well as you just did. Last night I tried to recall when I was in my 30s and idealistic. I believe I was also cemented in my own beliefs about things and probably wouldn't have listened to anyone else either....or was that when I was 18 and new everything there was to know? Can't remember. :-)

Zarq...welcome back. As for your story about Abu-Graib and the children...Hell, we do that here when we interrogate suspects. We (God, I'm not referring to 'we', but our police). I could give you several examples of what one could refer to as mental torture that goes on here, much too often, when trying to force the so-called 'truth' out of a suspect. These kind of tactics often force, not the truth, but anything the suspect thinks the cops want to hear, just to get out of their horrible positions. Certain occupations elicit certain kinds of people. If you're a child molestor, get a job in a school, be a school bus driver, a coach, yes, and sometimes, a priest. If you want to show you're a tough guy and push people around...a cakie job would to be a cop with a gun on your hip...or a soldier. This doesn't mean that MOST cops are that way, or MOST coaches, school bus drivers, soldiers, etc. MOST Americans are good people. But, there are rotten apples in every barrel. Unfortunately, we as a people tend to close our eyes when it comes to the bad things that 'we' do. We're in denial, and that denial is what allows it to continue and escalate. I think we're just trying to get you younger people to open your eyes, and not be so close minded (as even Neocon admits he is on some subjects). Don't be close minded on ANY subject. Allow yourself to explore ALL the sides of a story and ALL the options before making up your mind. I'm not insinuating that you're not intelligent. I think everyone on this forum is intelligent (including you, Beezle, and this is NOT over your head) but you can't really make an intelligent, informed decision on anything if you're eyes are closed and your mind is not willing to explore another opinion, another idea (even if it's uncomfortable for you to look at).
We, as a country, DO commit crimes, just as the other countries we're condemning. We did in WWII, we did in Viet Nam, and we're still doing it. WE are not perfect, and we have a lot that needs fixing. It's VERY important that your age group have a FULL understanding of what is and has been going on, because in the near future, you will be the ones running this country, and if you've still got your blinders on, and refuse to read more than just Fox News, we're in trouble.
Try reading ALL the papers. Try to listen to other people. Try to see the results of the mistakes made in the past....then you can make an intelligent, informed, and probably wise decision.
KS...2nd thought. Maybe I will tell you a little bit about the crimes we committed in Viet Nam. Please note that I use the word 'we' loosely, as I for one, committed no crime...intentionally, and neither did the lion share of the men who served. Killing babies was done by some, on purpose, but most of us were duped into thinking that these huts were filled with the enemy, only to find out later that they were filled with women and children. Poor intelligence, along with the enemy wanting us to think that, so they could say we were killing babies.
We did, however, rape their woman and girls. We robbed them, we tortured them, and we even killed our own. I know of one incident when a seargant was murdered by one of his men (they hated him). During a barrage of gun fire, this soldier just aimed his rifle at the seargant and pulled the trigger. No one said anything (like I said they all hated him), and who was to know that he wasn't killed by the enemy? So, he got his heroes funeral, saying he was killed, bravely, in the line of duty, etc., but he was murdered by his own men. He wasn't the only case like that. Men you just didn't like...well, war is war. I've always smiled at the term "friendly fire". Friendly? When bullets are flying, anybody can get hit, so it might really be an accident, but how can we refer to it as friendly?
Why don't we call it what it is...an accident...a mistake? We don't like the word 'accident' because that implies we made a mistake, and we don't like the word 'mistake'. That denotes we did something wrong. We prefer 'friendly' instead. :-)
"Ex: Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, and those we haven't caught yet."

Oops! I think I meant Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker. We haven't caught Jerry Falwell, yet. LOL

My daughter was in the Navy. She was in Persian Gulf War-91. She used to call me when something happened to let me know she was ok. She also used to call me (Guess we were both watching CNN)to inform me of the truth about what was going on over there vs. what I was hearing on the news.
As Zarq says, there were lies and propaganda then, as well. There always has been and always will be propaganda fed to you by those in power who want you to believe what they want you to believe, and the sad thing is that people want to believe that everyone is bad and that they are good. That's why it's so easy for Americans to be convinced about the evils of others and the great superpower...AMERICA is GREAT!!! That's what you want to believe. My analogy of your son vs. the entire class...you'd like to believe "It's not MY son". Truth is, it's not the entire class, it IS your son. That's just a bitter pill to swallow, and it's easier to believe what you want to believe because, that way, you don't have to deal with it.
I also wanted to make a comment about the article re: Korean children. I realize it said Bush was Hitler...which turned you off, so you probably thought it was democratic and stopped reading, but Bush has little to do with it, except that he is the current president. I don't think they'd feel any different if Kerry or God was president. They believe that Americans are Nazis and believe that "there will never be peace until every last American is killed." They are rigorously teaching their children in their school...not just hate for Americans, but academically, while we continue to dumb down our education, so that every child will pass. A recent article says by the year 2015 that only 32% of students who receive a high school diploma or equivalency diploma will be college ready. This should scare you. I work in schools, and know what is going on in the educational system. My sister is a teacher, and she, too knows what is going on. Parents in Korea don't call the schools to complain that their children shouldn't be learning whatever. Our parents say, I don't want my kid reading Huckleberry Finn, there's racism in that book". "I don't want my kid reading this, they mention God"...etc. Basically, the kids are in control in the schools and not the teachers. I spend a lot of my day talking with angry parents because they're upset that their kid flunked a test or complain because an IQ or Achievement test I administered to their child showed a borderline IQ with low achievement. They assume it's either because I didn't administer the test properly, or there must be something wrong with the test...of course, it's not their kid. We're not allowed to discipline our children, so they run wild with no supervision or consequences, and these are the same children that will end up fighting the Korean children being taught to obey, and learning to follow orders.
Parents are so surprised when their kid makes it through school, and can't make it through college. Well, even colleges are being forced to dumb down so that they can stay open.
The internet is a great tool for people in other countries to talk to each other...and us...and to learn what is going on, therefore, feeding them information that we don't really want them to know. It can breed hate groups and can teach any of us anything we want to know, i.e., making a bomb, etc.
Recently, in my home town, 3 young boys were charged as adults for throwing bombs they learned to make on the computer. No one was hurt, and these particular boys were from good middle class families. Astonishingly enough, these boys didn't think they were doing anything wrong. They found this information on the internet, and had been learning about some of this stuff in Chemistry class, so they didn't think it was a crime to make such things and try them out. They weren't using them against people, just setting them off in their neighborhood. Frankly, it's a wonder they all came out of this with all their fingers and toes.
We are raising our children to think that they don't have to work for anything and that they can get anything they want...what a shocker it will be when they discover that real life isn't anything like that.
BTW, my sister is a high school teacher in Maryland, and says she has Iranian children and Korean children in her class who have admitted they are only hear for educational purposes and plan to return to their country after graduation. We continue to educate those who hate us, arming them with the tools to help them destroy us. It just concerns me that the young people out there don't think that we can be destroyed...well, we can.
'here'
Well, after reading Zarkon and the agreeable, neutral Peacemaker....all I can say is I pity you both. I'm sure Peacemaker pities me; afterall, in his eyes, I'm still shitting my pants and having mommy change me. And I support Bush, a Hitler-likepoliticianwhowantsa tobring a fascist state to America. Zarkon, I couldn't give a shit what you think. Europes perfect for you, frankly.

It's clear from both of your arguments regarding abortion you have a concept of a communal morality (leave us alone, it's OUR choice: YOUR laws, rather than the Peoples), rather than an individual morality (killing a baby is just wrong). You have both given up assigning responsibility on the individual, or expecting the individual to actually accept any. You simply have given up. I'm sorry, I won't. Call me what you will: stupid, deranged; brain-washed, infantile.
It's also obvious neither of you have read my posts clearly, but that's your problem. You may want to pay better attention, however, in more serious forums. Especially on thetopic.
By the way, it's this kind of communal attitude towards morality that also gave birth to fascism and communism. It wasn't just Nazis and the SS who killed Jews'. Poles and Slavs, normal people took part in the killing before they toobecame victims. I know, Peacmaker, "what's normal?"
Keep it up Zarkon, one day we may have to liberate you AGAIN.

I love your sentence that I and MINE will get what Mussolini got. Wrong again. This is America, not EUROPE. Here in the United States, we don't tolerate that shit...

"I´m attempting to point out the stuff you don´t want to deal with because it upsets your propaganda apple cart." How good was that line? Typical horseshit, frankly, Peacmaker.
What do you think Kerrysucks and myself have been trying to do with you? Expose the half truths and downright negative rhetoric ALWAYS assigned to the US by liberals, socialists, america haters, etc. with examples of what the US IS doing and HAS done.
Unfortunately, with liberals and Europeans, we conservatives are always forced to counter the bunk (PREMPTIVE bunk, mind you: liberals invented the word preemptive), rather than taking the offensive. That's the struggle we live with everyday. Just listen to the NAACP on Bush today. Lies. Just listen to Franks on why Kansas by majority are redneck, bucktoothed conservatives, rather than smart, intellectual liberals. Lies. Lies Lies.
Zarkon wrote: I´m NOT exaggerating the numbers. In your list of justifications for
taking away individual rights you studiously decline to mention Panama, East Timor BIAFRA Venezuela......and on and on. check your
history without wearing your blinkers this time.

You're full of shit, Zarkon, full of shit (that's right, the shitty attitude of this Euro justifies blunt language). Let me tell you this, and I'm sure you already know this. Ten years ago, a country in your backyard was losing tens of thousands to mass murder (turned out to be hundreds of thousands). Naturally, the European compassionate leaders did not a fucking thing. The United States had to come in. Amazing how you want to concentrate on the deaths caused by the US, but not the lives SAVED. Your post VERY generally mentioned only deaths caused bythe US. My God, you're stupid. Again, read my post correctly.
Obviously, you and your European brethren wanted Saddam in power, afterall the Oil for Food program provided cheaper gas for your yugos. That's why France and Germany opposed the War (very interesting). Ignore hundreds of thousands dead in mass graves, keep Saddam in power to do another generation of mass murder.
What do you care; tell me, Zarkon, do you have any Iraqi neighbors, Rwandan neighbors, Sudanese neighbors?

What an idiot you are! Next time you want to criticize the U.S., why don't you try using good background info, instead of Al-Jazeera and your American-hating propaganda. Read some books, instead of watching Michael Moore.

Oh no, I just shit my diaper again. Pardon me while I get mommy and get aq bottle.
Whoa! Neocon....maybe you ARE a child. I can't believe what I just read...speaking of reading one's posts correctly, it's obvious that you have not only read the posts incorrectly, but made up a bunch of shit along the way. Minds that stay closed will never take in anything new. That's apparently your problem...and yes, I am sorry for you. I don't pity you. You'll grow up...you'll see. Then, one day, far in the future...if there is a 'far in the future', I think you'll remember me and what has been said here.
"It's clear from both of your arguments regarding abortion you have a concept of a communal morality (leave us alone, it's OUR choice: YOUR laws, rather than the Peoples), rather than an individual morality (killing a baby is just wrong). You have both given up assigning responsibility on the individual, or expecting the individual to actually accept any. You simply have given up. I'm sorry, I won't. Call me what you will: stupid, deranged; brain-washed, infantile."

BTW, it's apparent that nothing is clear to you.
Peacemaker: "I believe I was also cemented in my own beliefs about things and probably wouldn't have listened to anyone else either...."
"I think we're just trying to get you younger people to open your eyes, and not be so close minded (as even Neocon admits he is on some subjects)"
" It's VERY important that your age group have a FULL understanding of what is and has been going on, because in the near future, you will be the ones running this country, and if you've still got your blinders on, and refuse to read more than just Fox News, we're in trouble."

So let me get this straight. When I'm older and more mature like you gentelmen, I'll be able to say the following with complete confidence and look down condescendingly on younger whipper-snappers:
"Ever heard of Michael Moore...However, his documentary, Farenheit 911 isn't political...it's just the truth about the man we didn't vote into office."
"I never said I believed everything that Michael Moore said...however, I do believe video tapes I see of George Bush saying what George Bush said. It's not Michael Moore's fault that George Bush says things on TV and at public functions that make him sound like an idiot...he IS an idiot. Michael Moore didn't show that...GW showed that."
"As as pyschologist, I think I understand people. That's why I can see the writing on the wall... It's also because the same writings have been on the same wall. It's just that each new generation forgets these things. Hitler's mayhem, to your generation, is something that happened a long time ago, and couldn't possibly happen again. That's where you're wrong. The Germans didn't think it could happen to them and thought that Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced bread. They were being duped. They didn't even know what hit them, and the really sad thing is that neither do you."
"I am currently located in Vienna, Austria, once homeland of Adolf Hitler. The shit being generated by the Bush Junta is eerily familiar and well understood here. Maybe you should get out and about more."
"As for Bush, I can relate with Zarquon's comment about Europe's comparison to Bush and Hitler. I think people need to open up their eyes and see just what Bush is after. Neocon...Bush doesn't give a hot damn about you or any of the rest of us. He's a dictator...or a wannabe, and he's frightening."
"Fact is, your media is giving you a horribly slanted picture of what has happened and is happening globally. I´m being totally
serious when I draw attention to the close resemblence of the emergence of Fascism under Hitler and what the current US govt is doing. Hell, I´m right here where it happened, I know hundreds of people who´s parents were REAL Nazis, in some cases those parents are still around. Some have "seen the light" and now understand how they were manipulated, others are unrepentant, they still believe they are SUPERIOR to other races. So please, please get off your high horses and try and get some of the big picture."
"I'm frankly tired of having to give up freedoms to please those religious fundamentalists that are out to elect people they can manipulate
...like Bush...so that we are all forced to live under their religious ideals... Marijuana is legal in Australia, and do they have anywhere near our crime rate...no!...There are too many laws in this country and that's why there are so many criminals. There was no organized crime until the days of Prohibition, when alcohol was illegal. It became illegal when those religious fundamentalists decided that THEY thought it was sinful to drink. Soon it will become illegal to smoke cigarettes...Separation of church and state....well, the churches have become the state and are paying big bucks to make sure they can elect some idiot who will make sure that the church is in control instead of the state. I believe I've said this before, but as an American, I should be free to do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting anyone else or infringing on their rights. I object having to live my life according to a bunch of religious zealots who believe they are superior to the rest of us, and speaking for God."
"That is my point with religion being the root cause to all of this crap. The bible is so full of contradictions it makes my head hurt. I think if you outlaw religion, maybe that will fix everything. And if it does'nt, well, it will still get that idiot Benny Hinn of the television."
"Bush wants to run the country! This is not my opinion, it's a fact, and anyone in this world, not wearing blinders, can see that! There have been several presidents I believed to be idiots...Nixon was one, but I never thought for a moment that he wanted to be the "leader of the world". Bush does."

Aye Karumba.....this young punk gives up. It's true: NOTHING you guys say is clear to me. Have a nice day.
Neocom,

You RULE! LMAO!

Zarkon and Peacemaker,

I just don't know where to begin! Ok here goes........

1). Zarkon you think we haven't heard of the Abu Ghraib prision "Scnadal" on the front page of every friggin news paper east and west of the Mississippi!?! That is not news to me! We had to endure that crap for months! What I would like to know is what you thought of NIck Berg? As horrible as the prisoners were treated were any of their heads sawed off? Or maybe you would like to talk to Paul Johnson, oh I'm sorry you can't, becasue his head has been sawed off too!

2). You two think you are so "enlightened" well why don't you two stop watching "LEFTIST" spun news and try getting you news from FOX News or RUSH for once. All this "Bush Lied" crap and it turned out that Bush DIDN"T lie, according to the UK Intelligence reports! Paul Wilson said there was no uranium in Niger, but there was! Saddam had no connection to al-Queda? Well wrong again New York Times, CBS, NBC, CNN, there is! Stop listening to the pinko, commie, hippie, crap that you listen to and try looking outside your box ! You want to impress read the book I'm reading called; MIchael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man! Maybe Your eyes will be opened! I know what you are going to say; :"You only get your news from Rush, Fox News etc. Which is Bull Shit! Being a conservative we can't escape the main stream press! I force myself to listen to them anyway because I don't want to be in the dark like YOU! I resent being talked down to like conservatives are stupid!

3) Your agrument on abortion is incredible! The CHOICE starts when a man and women DECIDE to have sexual relations (Clintonese for sex)! Come on, in this day and age with AIDS and all the other diseases, you are going to tell me that going to bed without using any kind of protection is safe????!!!!!! GET REAL! Then because you wanted a little whoooptie Doooo, you want the right to have "it" removed like a wart or something?! Is that what children have been reduced to? It is a living thing! You are so concrened about the children in the Abu Ghraib prison but get "That kid" sucked out of my girl friends belly becasue it is not a good time for me! You should have thought of it before you had your roll in the hay!!!!!! So lets abolish all morality and laws, becasue it's not convienent! From this day forward I think we should just get rid of all laws because they are "inconvienent" and we don't want to be forced to "Obey " anything! " Gee officer, I am sorry I plowed over that old lady but I am in a hurry and she would not get out of my way!I am late and I should not be forced to obey the law of murder!" Why not just make it so a woman can kill a child at any time during her life? It came form her body? Little Johnny is being a brat so I pushed him in front of his school bus! Sorry, why should I be forced to be stuck with him?? I of course am demonstrating the absurdity of your argument!

4) Peacemaker for the final time, I got the Korean article about the kids. I made a feeble attempt at a joke to point out to you that the Koreans sounded like Michael Moore and the Dems.

5) I am a teacher! I taught second grade for 8 years and next year I will be teaching first. No I am not a child molester! I do agree with you about the behavior of kids but, that is because our society (encouraged by the libs) let kids/people get away with things without consequences. You give them structure, and discipline and they will be fine! I teach my students an empowerment program that teaches them to become responsible leaders! It is called Star Reachers. The child reaches for their goal (which represents their star)
and yes we talk about college and what they are going to do to reach their star. As far as dumbing down, I saw that until Clinton and Bush started making teachers accountable. I was teaching my second graders some geometry and pre alegbra last year! I think teachers should be accountable, but real change will happen when students and parents become accountable too! In my state we have to make our API or AYP ( as the call it) Basically our state sets a goal for each school and they average our test scores and we had better make it to that score or the school looses money, and gets put on probation. Yes I am very rare to be a conservative and a teacher! I hear all the NEA rhetoric everyday at school.

That is all I can handle for now.
Sorry Neocon I spelled your name wrong! Do you listen to Laura Ingrahm? I was listening today about that Kansas book. Good Lord! They really do think we are stupid! They are all knowing and we are a bunch of hill folk, banjo playin, buck tooth freaks!
Well YEE HAW!
Thanksfor the support, brother. I love Laura, Prager, and Hugh Hewitt(960 AM), but also thoroughly enjoy Rush and Hannity. Yes, I heard the bit on Kansas; that's where I got my rant from. I may have to buy the book for tortuous education on how this man can piece together such nonsense.

In 2000, after the election, USA Today came out with the country's total county results of the election (the infamous red and blue states). Two things struck me immediately:

First- It showed how important the electoral system really is to this Republic (Zarkon, it's not a democracy).

Second- It wiped away the age old rhetoric that Republicans are all about money and greed (tax cuts only for the rich lingo), while libs are penniless and run over by big business. Indeed, many average Joe Americans are republican and conservative because of their moral fabric and,most importantly, because they feel strongly that they can take care of themselves; money to them is only a necessity for a life made from experience,love and satisfaction with what one has.
Meanwhile the bluestates are in rich, urban areas. That's right, there are probably more rich libs than rich neocons. The libs always want mo' money (a movie). They want more money for education (as if tens, if not hundreds of BILLIONS isn't enough); money for this and that. Bush has pledged billions for AIDS research around the world. Of course, that's not enough; despite more than any other country.

Today, the crazy author who writes about Kansas blames Republicans for brainwashing the poor stupid white-trash into thinking there's actually more to life than money money money:(morals, respect for humanity, individual responsibility).
Now I realize after 2000 and after this crazy book, that liberals seem to care only for money and getting their share, even if it's not theirs. That's the only thing that matters.

Take Wal-Mart for example: Corporate empire, greedy, non-union,low wagesfor employees= EVIL.

A sociologistworking for LA County several months ago was interviewed on TV (this was when South Cal was voting to keep them out for labor reasons).

He said, hey, those labor issues are accurate, but the hard truth is whenever Wal-Mart comes into a poor urban area, hundreds of thoudsands of low-income residents take advantage of the low prices and benefit more than they would from government handouts.
So the question is, curse WalMart for non-union pay, or congratulate them for helping so many low-income people, because of cheap prices? Me? I'm going to WalMart.
Kerrysucks: I just had to get on here again to tell you you're a great american!

A friend of mine is also a teacher (8th grade: God Help Her). The school, like so many others has been tied at the hands-
First from the PC crowd that has gotten corporal punishment banned from schools, and
Second- from stupid parents who won't let the teachers and officials punish their chiold accordingly.

This is the era of time-outs, counting
"threateningly",instead of pulling the ear like Mom used to do with us.
This friend of mine was punished for keeping kids after school and writing an essay explaining their poor behavior. Pathetic. Now lawyers are suing to get failed students second and third chances. Failing isn't an option, which means mediocrity is the norm.

Money, as Kerry and other libs want, won't solve anything. First, we must go back to teaching our kids about the word "Fear". Not the fear of getting whipped and beaten like a dog; but respect for others, good behavior and an awareness of what will happen when they do something crazy and juvenile. The Bible used the word perfectly (sorry, not to sound like a preacher, but it's true). But my parents did a great job of instilling the fear of bad behavior in me. The result, I'm a law abiding individual and working man with a family.
Today, kids have no fear of anything, least of all teachers (especially in upper grades and high school). Parents: do your job!!!
Medved is talking about this today(money,public schools and improved education).

See, Peacekeeper? I think we can agree on that!

It's an honor to be acquainted with a conservative teacher, Kerrysucks.
I'll need three posting to say what I'm going to say. Here is the first one:

"So let me get this straight. When I'm older and more mature like you gentelmen, I'll be able to say the following with complete confidence and look down condescendingly on younger whipper-snappers:"

No, Neocon, I think this is what you'll be saying:

As for abortion, that was just the topic of the moment, as it was being bantered about. I'll leave it alone after this one point.

I was simply allowing others to dictate how this country should be run, and how we as a culture should change to accommodate a few. I realized, this is my country and this is my culture.
You want to CHANGE our cultural attitudes dealing with abortion

I don't think repealing Roe V Wade will help anything. Sounds funny, huh? If that were to happen, the country would be embroiled in senseless turmoil. I think there are good reasons for abortion (we all know them).
Iraq was not immenent as Bush has said, but we acted before he was.

My disgust on this issue was apparent during the presidential debates in 2000, as both Gore and Bush declared they would have done nothing in Rwanda.

You're right, I have no compassion for inaction. How can anyone WITH compassion say doing nothing would have been better?
"Stop living off America's harworking class, you stupid pissant. Brush your fucking teeth, take a shower and peel the intestinal vomit off your yellow face. Get a job and contribute.
By the way, you shit-faced little mole, Kerry couldn't make it in politics without a billionaire wife to ease the financial burden of a politician. You must have forgotten, the enviro friendly candidate owns five cars including a SUV (oops, it's his wife's, nevermind). That must make you angry, considering you drive a Yugo."
Obviously, you and your European brethren wanted Saddam in power, afterall the Oil for Food program provided cheaper gas for your yugos.
I can say, however, that he is absolutely correct. Bug out, pea brain.
I wouldn't go onto a European site and start commenting on their government and asking why they're so backwards. If the people are happy with a Socialist system; go for it.
Well, shit for brains, the next time an Aussie starts killing off jews, poles, slavs, homosexuals and decent families, we'll just tay on our side of the ocean and watch
It's amazing how this schmuck can actually condemn our government.
So I thought to myself, why should this moron (no subtle hints here) express his opinion when he doesn't even live here?
In other words they have the freedom and love for freedom because of us.

You're full of shit, Zarkon, full of shit (that's right, the shitty attitude of this Euro justifies blunt language).
My God, you're stupid.
What an idiot you are!
By the way, you shit-faced little mole
Your hippy-loving, garlic-smelling kind is so pathetic
I think you're ignorant and full of demented ideals.
This educated person is not interested in a European condemning our system.
But I do have the freedom to tell him to bug off; and I'll say it again. It's the american way!
If I ran this site, I wouldn't bar anyone, including Euros.
I've never heard so much hate speech in my life. It's all from the mouths of liberals and Bush Haters.
For every action, there's a reaction.
I realized, this is my country and this is my culture.

I'm not stupid; I'm not blind; I'm not ignorant....I know what I consider truth
Our president a sociopath? Whoo! Too much illegal, but "tolerated" cannibus, Mr Zarkon.

HITLER is to blame for that war and the ensuing destruction to so many good people. Hitler, Hiroshito and Mussolini are to blame; not us.
Blame the goddamn serbs and Milosevic
Blame Saddam and the migrating terrorist psychotics for those innocent people killed in Iraq everyday. THEY are to blame.
it's all Europes fault
Stop blaming America; blame the real killers and evildoers.
The United States had to come in. Amazing how you want to concentrate on the deaths caused by the US, but not the lives SAVED.
I'm not close-minded

You obviously miss my point

It's also obvious neither of you have read my posts clearly, but that's your problem.
This is America, not EUROPE. Here in the United States, we don't tolerate that shit...

Expose the half truths and downright negative rhetoric ALWAYS assigned to the US by liberals, socialists, america haters, etc. with examples of what the US IS doing and HAS done.
With soccer mom support and hippies who smoke dope, but not cigs, yes, the government will pass bans (generalized use of lingo). That's the way of this country.

Zarkon is gone because of my genius with words.
Lies. Lies Lies.
The kissy kissy thing is from my previous job. Not a gay thing, and not hinting you were gay. My friends, talking like a typical construction worker would say goodbye with a kissy kissy. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I have to roll and keep myself from peeing my pants.
Oh no, I just shit my diaper again.
Oh, and for your advise on my news preferences...I listen to Fox news, as well as CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Washington Post, USA, and just about every other newspapers including my own local newspaper, which is a Republican newspaper. Here are a couple articles from Fox news. It might behoove you people...you know who you are...the ones that know everything...to broaden your horizons and read something other than just Fox news:

MIAMI — Law enforcement officials in central Florida are planning to train cable repairmen, exterminators and apartment managers to report signs of terrorism inside their clients’ homes.
Supporters of the program say making private citizens the eyes and ears of the police will save lives.
But opponents, like the ACLU (search), call the plan “un-American” and say it’s a violation of privacy.
Operation TIPS (search), a similar program proposed by President Bush, was withdrawn in 2002 after critics said it would lead to racial profiling.
So far, 5,000 brochures detailing the Florida plan have been printed, and volunteers will be trained what to look for.
But Orange County officials stress that people who go through the training will be encouraged to only report what they see — not search for evidence.
Click on the video box at the top of this story to watch a report by FOX News' Steve Harrigan

An excerpt from Article 2:

The two pipelines have been repeatedly targeted by saboteurs over the past few weeks and, in one attack last month, resulted in a halt of exports for almost a week.
Iraq's interim prime minister, Iyad Allawi, has said the attacks over the past few weeks have cost the country about $1 billion in lost revenue.
Insurgents frequently target the country's oil infrastructure in a bid to undermine the new government's reconstruction efforts, which largely hinge on oil revenue.

Article 3:

LOS ANGELES — The Slim-Fast diet drink company has dumped Whoopi Goldberg (search) from its advertising because its executives were unhappy with remarks the comedian made at a recent political rally that mocked President Bush (search).
"We are disappointed by the manner in which Ms. Goldberg chose to express herself and sincerely regret that her recent remarks offended some of our consumers. Ads featuring Ms. Goldberg will no longer be on the air," Slim-Fast (search) general manager Terry Olson said in a press release Wednesday.
Goldberg participated at a recent Democratic fund-raiser at Radio City Music Hall in New York, joining performers such as John Mellencamp, Jon Bon Jovi, Paul Newman, Meryl Streep, Jessica Lange and John Leguizamo.
At one point in a speech mocking the Bush administration, Goldberg used his surname as a sexual reference.
The event raised $7.5 million for the John Kerry-John Edwards presidential ticket. Both Kerry and Edwards attended, but neither commented about the jokes made by the celebrities toward Bush.
Goldberg's representatives did not immediately return a call for comment Wednesday.

Free Speech and a little humor...let's fire the broad...that's the American Way!!! Right boys?

I heard months ago, that a group of women were shaving their Bush...as a joke to say that they wanted No More Bush....maybe we should find out where they work and get them fired...or maybe we should call the police in Miami and have them get their neighbors to peep through windows to see who's shaving! LOL
Peacemaker, you forgot to add at the end: "Have a Nice Day."
"Second- from stupid parents who won't let the teachers and officials punish their chiold accordingly."

Excuse me!! Don't you know that it is against the law for teachers to punish children in schools??????? Parents are also afraid to punish their children because their children can just pick up the phone and call 911 and say their parents are abusing them. The only punishment allowed in schools is 'time-out' or taking away some small privilege. Woah, now that should straighten their little asses out, huh?
Oops...sorry....Have a nice day...Kissy Kissy! :-)
About those women: it depends if they were goodlooking. If they're as ugly as those women suing to go topless in public, I say fire them.
What do you think, Kerrysucks?
Slimfast was a little dumb to hire Whoopde-Do in the first place.
I mean can you imagine her on TV,

"Just drink the shit, child, and get your lard-ass off the f###$$ing couch! You want to look like a planet forever, bitch, or do you want to get a piece of ass from Joe Stud? That's right, he won't dive into your flab, honey, he has to breathe! You gotta lose it first!
Try Slimfast, to get some Trimfast!"

Uhhhhh....was that too vulgar? Sorry...just crude humor.
Peacemaker, what was the point of that last post(schools andpunishment)? That was my point already. IIIIII don't get it.
Neocon,

Thank you! I listen to Laura, then Rush, Sean Hannity, and Hugh Hewitt. I do like prager but he comes on during Rush. Once I go back to school I won't be able to here Rush or Hannity. :(

I think you're a great American too! it is refreshing to hear that soemone is from the same planet as I am!

I totally agree with you. You should see all the money that is wasted in education!!!!! Unbelievable! You see the government has it so they give us X amont of dollars to spend on a program, and we have to spend every last dime, whether you need to or not, because the government takes the money away if you don't spend it. Why can't we just spend the money we need and use the rest to carry over to other programs!?? I guess that would make to much sense! The solution to every problem is education is; "If it is broken throw money at it!"
We have a free breakfast and lunch program at school and parents actually bring brown bags and wait by the kid while they are eating to grab any food they don't eat and put it in the bag to bring home! We had to ban them from the lunch tables! Right now we have a problem with the budget, I'm form California, and thanks to Gray Davis our 2 billion surplus is now down in the red!
So even though the left accuses us of not being exposed to anything but FOX News, as you can see I am in the Mecca of the "Left Coast" ! Good ole LA! You can't escape liberalism here, it is like the smog you can't avoid breathing it in!

Parents don't like to be bothered to tell their kids "No!" It takes to much work! What people don't understand is discipline =love. My kids (students) respect me becasue I hold them to a standard, if they don't obey the rules they get a consequnce every time! It was so by mid year I just said calmly, "What rule did you break?" Then we would discuss their consequence! I would always end with "Whose fault was this?" I want them to accept responsiblity. Then Iwouls say "What would you different next time?" To set them on the right path. I use to be a mentor teacher. The Star Reacher Program went district wide. I love my job! It is summer and I am already getting bored! I don't go back until Sept 6.

I am a christian too, and the left which is soooooo tolerant, amazes me on how much they hate christians. This country was founded on judeo-christian values.

Are you going to get Hugh's book? When I got Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man the guy at the book store looked like he was going to throw up! Hugh's book wasn't there! You have to order it!

It has been a pleasure to "vent" with you and share ideas!
Yes, I'll buy Hugh's Book. Can't wait for that Documentary to come out (MichaelMoore Hates America) and watch the reaction from the loons.

I'll "pray" for your safety and freedom to vent in Left LA.
LOL! Well, it was because of the statement that stupid parents won't let the teachers punish their child....it's not the stupid parents...it's the stupid law that says you can't. You and KS continually talk about us libs...and accuse us of causing all the world's ills, but I'm not a lib in the sense you keep referring to, and I doubt that Zarq is, either. It wasn't my idea to take God out of the country and it wasn't my idea to mamby pamby our kids so that their feelings wouldn't be hurt or so that they would maintain their self-esteem.
Just like the woman who lost her kid to a drunk driver, someone out there felt that the school system damaged their self-esteem when the kids picked teammates and they didn't get picked or something, so all those who felt cheated out of their self-esteem got together and made a law....so, we're stuck with kids with no education and no values, no respect for self or others, no morals, but hot damn....they've got self-esteem!!
When this generation of kids full of self-esteem figure out that they were cheated out of an education in school, or morals, etc., they'll all get together and decide to make a law that demands children be punished in school....go figure.
Neocon,
What Peacemaker was saying was that you can't use corporal punishment in schools. We can't physiclly touch them. I get my students to behave! You don't need them to slap them around, just be connsistant and follow through!
Peacemaker please tell me you didn't quote the "LEFT Angeles" Times! PLLLEASE! Just because you copy and paste a bunch "Conservative" news doesn't mean you actually read and pay attention! I have converted a lot of libs by exposing them to the truth! Once they get out of the conspiracy theory mode that is! Kissy! kissy ! And a YEE HAW to YA!

Neocon,
LOL Whoopi post! I could give a Whoop if Whoopi gets fired!
" us libs...and causing all the world's ills,:

Now you are getting it Peacemaker! Just little Michael Moore editing for you!
:)
I just read everything so I can get more of the truth than just one-sided piece of crap to totally rely on. You're putting all your eggs in one basket.
Yes, KS, we can get MOST of the kids to behave with modifications and plain talk, but there are those defiant little bastards who will never listen to reason, and time-out and all the other little nicities aren't going to do the trick. Probably because violence is what they grew up with and all they know...but as you know, we can't control their homelife, as much as we would like to. Most often, I think it's the parents I'd like to smack.

I could give a Whoop if Whoopie gets fired, either. She doesn't need the job or the money. You just seem to be so UP there, that you missed the point. It's called freedom of speech! I thought you could do that in this great superpower country you've been speaking so highly about without reprecussions...Guess not! Guess we're not as free as you think we are.
Of course there's the Miami police...you didn't mention that because female anatomy wasn't mentioned in the article, but doesn't that bother you...that the police could get your neighbors to spy on your activities in your own home? Today...terrorism...tomorrow, it might be sex with your wife, or is it your wife?...or sites you visit online. I can see where it starts, but where does it end? You guys just don't get it, do you?
You both missed my point completely:

Point 2: Some parents (stupid) won't allow teachers to keep their kids one hour for punishment, much less a weekend; won't allow teachers to FAIL their kids; won't allow them to do ANYTHING as far as ANY discipline...
I gave you an example.
Many kids USED to be kept out of sports if they failed; now, thanks to loopholes in Arizona Laws, schools now suspend those failed athletes for...ONE GAME....now there's incentive!

Corporal Punishment was my first point. I never got swatted in school, but the mere fact teachers COULD was enough for me to respect them. That's what we need in schools is what I'm saying here.
Whoopis termination wasn't FREE SPEECH violation. The company was using her, she's not that great an example and they canned her.
Free Speech, a clause in the First Amendment doesn't guarantee you a job. It guarantees the individual can express whathe/she wants without fear of prosecution.
The Dixie Chicks were dumb; Whoopi's dumb; Trent Lott was strung up by the left and had to leave (oops that is a good example of trampling hahahahah), but, of course, Chris Dodd got off without a whimper for what he said.
Anyway, nice try: Dr Laura-canned because groups shut her down; Michael Savage-canned; Rush may get kicked off a military station.
Damn! I hate to say I agree with Neocon, again. This is really upsetting me. I need a drink!
My point! I know freedom of speech doesn't guarantee you a job, but it's supposed to be ok to say something derrogatory against your leaders. The government sure does, and they haven't lost their jobs....YET!! :-)
I think I'll go yell FIRE in a movie theatre. I've always wanted to do that.
BTW, remind me what did Chris Dodd, say?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....driiiiiiiiiiink...........
Tomorrow's Friday....beeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr....
My wife won't let me have beer until the weekend. I know, I know..she wears the pants...I gave them to her after saying "I Do". Why rock the boat?
"I´ve been thinking the same thing. Rather not post any email address here, maybe one of us can come up with a list with a private mail
function as the first step. I will also check with my tame internet boffin to see what he suggests."
One more attempt for Zarquon!

Hey, I'm not sure what's going through your mind, but this is not the place to discuss it, and I really wanted to talk to you about something. The email address I gave you is just a hotmail email address...it's nothing covert. It was just a way for you to contact me so that I could give you my real email address and you could email me there.
You seemed to be agreeable to the idea at one point. Email me and tell me why you changed your mind. If you don't wish to talk to me after the initial email, then don't email me anymore. I'm not a computer hacker, so I wouldn't know how to find you if you just stopped the correspondence...so will you try to trust someone, and email me at that address? After which, I'll get rid of that account. If you don't wish me to know you're real email address, go to hotmail and get another one...that you an also close if, for some reason, you don't want to talk.
Neocon,
Amen! I had a child or as Peacemaker says' "a little Bastard" in my class who was abused and use to kick me and spit in my face, and scream like you have never heard! By the end of the year I had her on the right track. And I did it without slapping her foster parents! I worked with her and her parents. It took a while but it got better. The parents followed the same routine; be consistant and follow through! We worked together! We would talk EVERY day! Yes you are right there needs be "Fear" But thank the libs for that too!
Also Amen to free speech and Whoopi. When the left gets fired it is a "free speech issue" But if the right gets canned that is just they way it goes I guess!
BTW, it's http://www.hotmail.com or you could go to http://www.yahoo.com and set one up. Use a phoney name...I did.
Don't have a wife. Can drink anything anytime I want. :-)

Well, what did Chris Dodd say???? I ask because I have a disease that older people get, sometimes. It's called CRAFT: Can't Remember A Fuckin' Thing!
KS:
I worked with her and her parents. It took a while but it got better. The parents followed the same routine; be consistant and follow through!

That's the ideal situation, but tooooo many parents don't trust the schools and wouldn't work together with you for love nor money. They think you're out to get them or hurt them in some way and they are very leary of allowing you into their world.
I had one ocassion when someone called Child Protective Services on this family, and they blamed the school. Honestly, the school did NOT call CPS, but someone did, so these parents, who desperately needed our help, wouldn't trust us because they just KNEW we had called CPS. There are many families like this, that you just can't reach. All you can do is the best you can do for the child in the short time you have him/her in your care, I guess.
Peacemaker,
You're right that is all you can do. I go to great lengths because it is a passion. I look at it like this; if I can help one student my year is a success! In those situations I find it best to call the parents with positive news! Any time the kid does something good call them. I start right from the first day of shcool, Establish that rapport early, then when the kid misbehaves the parents feel that they can trust you and maybe open to suggestions.
Yes, you are right. I try to do the same thing, and most parents I deal with are very cooperative and really want the best for their child, therefore, they work well with the staff for that end. I feel the same way regarding 'just one student'. I feel that if I can save just one kid, I've succeeded. In fact, just one kid in a life time would be worth my education, ten fold.
Amen peacemaker! :)
Peacemaker, I emailed you on that first hotmail addy. no reply so
I guess you didn´t get it. Don´t give up, I won´t, but I`m really
rushed of my feet with work. I´ll try again.
Meanwhile here´s an interesting interview featuring Daniel Ellsberg.
http://www.villagevoice.com...
Hmmm. No email since I've opened the account. I keep checking it. Peacemaker745@hotmail.com
I don't know. Try again. If it doesn't work, I'll give you another one.
Chris Dodd, at a celebration for Robert Byrd, went to great lengths to compliment the former clansman, with such words as "Perfect for this country at anytime in its history" and so on.

Now, we all know it's the nice thing to do and say at a party for the guest of honor, and normally is no big deal(Byrd's an old man and a hilarious speaker).
However, Trent Lott got in big trouble for doing the exact same thing over Strom Thurmond. The difference was, America only found out through talk radio about Democrat Dodd, while Republican Lott was strung up on every front page in the country and chastised by the NAACP.

It was a great example of liberal bias in the media.
Must have missed that one, Neocon. Thanks for answering my question. Also didn't know Robert Byrd was ever in the Clan....Where did you find that out? I thought he'd been a Senator all of his life...in fact, I was sure he was born one.
Zarq...thanks for sending me the site. It was great, funny, and quite informative.
It was a great example of liberal bias in the media.

Let's be fair, Neocon. There is bias on both sides of the media. There is conservative bias, as well.

Don't you hear that? It's my bed calling.....
Night :-)
I know that, but what's the fun of quoting conservative bias? We already know that's true. (wink wink)(no gay insinuation).
Neocon,

http://www.womenswallstreet...

This was on Hugh's website, "Terror in the Skies".

Check it out!
kerrysucks wrote:-
"Zarkon you think we haven't heard of the Abu Ghraib prision "Scnadal" on the front page of every friggin news paper east and west of the Mississippi!?! That is not news to me! We had to endure that crap for months! What I would like to know is what you thought of NIck Berg?"

Take a closer look at the "Men In Black" standing behind in the
photo´s. Look quite "FAT" don´t they, Notice the Body Posture,
arabs don´t stand like that, We could be looking at American
"private sector" warriors here. I notice nobody has posted a
comment about the "babys ripped from incubators" scam. Admit
it, you just can´t handle the truth.
"what's the fun of quoting conservative bias?"

Well, I know I'd get a kick out of it. :-)
Kerrysucks....
I just happened to be reading the first page of this forum and a post to you from MarkR says:

"What do I mean by this? Well,It appears that you are a very intelligent and articulate woman w/ strong values."

Just curious...are you a woman? .. Or...did MarkR just assume you were?
ZarKon,
Greetings from planet Earth! So do you think it was shot on the same sound stage as the moon landing? Make sure when you travel that you don't fall off our flat Earth. :)
KS...you ignoring my question?
Peacemaker,
What difference does it make? I thoought you people didn't care. :)
Well, talk about Icing on the Yellow Cake!!!!

It's safe to say several conspiracies aspired to the Bush Administration can be erased from the liberal blackboard. Of course, the silence in the media world is deafening. Thank goodness for Hugh Hewitt and conservative Bloggers:
The following is an exherpt from a Robert Novak article released yesterday in the Sun Times:

Wilson contradictions leave Democrats Speechless

For a year, Democrats have been belaboring President Bush about 16 words in his 2003 State of the Union address in which he reported Saddam Hussein's attempt to buy uranium from Africa, based on British information. Wilson has been lionized in liberal circles for allegedly contradicting this information on a CIA mission and then being punished as a truth-teller. Now, for committee Democrats, it is as though the Niger question and Joe Wilson have vanished from the Earth.
Because a Justice Department special prosecutor is investigating whether any crime was committed when my column first identified Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, as a CIA employee, on advice of counsel I have not written on the subject since October. However, I feel compelled to describe how the committee report treats the Niger-Wilson affair because it has received scant coverage except in a few media outlets. The unanimously approved report said, ''interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD (CIA counterproliferation division) employee, suggested his name for the trip.'' That's what I reported, and what Wilson flatly denied and still does.
Plame sent out an internal CIA memo saying ''my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.'' A State Department analyst told the committee about an inter-agency meeting in 2002 that was ''apparently convened by [Wilson's] wife, who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue.''
The committee found that the CIA report, based on Wilson's mission, differed considerably from the former ambassador's description to the committee of his findings. That report ''did not refute the possibility that Iraq had approached Niger to purchase uranium.'' As far as his statement to the Washington Post about ''forged documents'' involved in the alleged Iraqi attempt to buy uranium, Wilson told the committee he may have ''misspoken.'' In fact, the intelligence community agreed that ''Iraq was attempting to procure uranium from Africa.''
''While there was no dispute with the underlying facts,'' Chairman Roberts wrote separately, ''my Democrat colleagues refused to allow'' two conclusions in the report. The first conclusion merely said that Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife's suggestion. The second conclusion is devastating: ''Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided.''
The normally mild Roberts is harsh in his condemnation: ''Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the president had lied to the American people, that the vice president had lied, and that he had 'debunked' the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. . . . [N]ot only did he NOT 'debunk' the claim, he actually gave some intelligence analysts even more reason to believe that it may be true.'' Roberts called it ''important'' for the committee to declare much of what Wilson said ''had no basis in fact.'' In response, Democrats were silent.
Makes no difference, I guess...if you're ashamed of your sex. Don't know what you mean by 'you people'.
Kerrysucks: I read the article. Indeed frightening. Apparently, Michele Malkin has confirmed the story as well. No doubt she'll write about it.

And Peacemaker, I've also copied the article regarding Anne Frank and the Commies in North Korea.

Scams: How about UN Oil for Food? The Sound of Silence......
Peacemaker,

what I meant is dems. I thought it doesn't matter what age sex etc. you are? As for what sex I am both I guess. Before you loose your hat, let me explain. On the first page it was all me (woman) but then I went and got married. That was why I quit for awhile. Then I just lurked for awhile. When you started talking about Vietnam my husband posted. It is his dad that was in Vietnam. So the first two post or whereever Vietnam is mentioned it is him. He generally doesn't like to post, but he is a Vietnam and WWII history buff so he couldn't resist. The rest of the work is all me. My husband thinks the way I do so you probably couldn't tell the difference anyway. We both think Kerysucks so that's why we stick with the name.
In that case, you're BOTH Great Americans!!
(by the way, Peacemaker, the use of Great American is used on the Hannity show as a greeting between host and caller).

I forgot to mention, and Rush just reminded us all, regarding the Whoop-de-do soap opera. Rush was canned unceremoniously from ESPN after his completely logical, unracist comments were interpreted by EVERYONE (including congressmen who don't know a football from the shit they spew).
He was labelled everything under the sun by the media, liberals, political leaders, etc. NO liberals defended him in any way. Hell, the NAACP and Jesse just laughed it off. Wonder what they'll say of Whoopi?

So when this shit happens to Whoopi, Danny Glover, etc., I just shrug and smile.

They reap what they sow. Maybe one day they'll learn something. The best remedy for getting smeared in the face is to just "cork their cryhole"(Simpson's quote).
Neocon,

Your Wilson post was right on the money! As always! Where is Tom Brokaw and Peter Jennings? Where is 60 minutes? They were so ready to give Richard Clarke and Robert Woodard a spot during their "Book of the Month Club".

Did you hear about Whoopi today? She is all mad at Repulicans over free speech. She is blaming them for getting fired and then the she atually said that the Bush Admin has gone after other whistle blowers such as Joe Wilson?! I guess she has ready her paper yet toaday. Well even if she did she probably wouldn't find it! LOL
Thank you Neocon!
There is a double standard all right! My dad use to say "Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves!"
Kerrysucks: I read the article. Indeed frightening. Apparently, Michele Malkin has confirmed the story as well. No doubt she'll write about it.

And Peacemaker, I've also copied the article regarding Anne Frank and the Commies in North Korea.

Ah! We agree on something!! :-)
Yes, well 'frightening' is putting it mildly. Frankly, it scares the shit out of me! Wonder what other countries are teaching THEIR kids that stuff?
Peacemaker,

I think there is hope for you! I do also think it is frightning! That is what commies do, they repeat a lie loud enough and often enough until it becomes the truth. Look at Joe Wilson, he went around for months spewing lies about the "16 words in Bush's speech" I have heard many libs like WHOOPI spewing the same lies, about the uranium and his wife's name being spilled. Now he turned out to be the liar, but a lot of libs (since the mainstream remains silent on the subjet) will not hear the truth and go on blindly believing Joe Wilson's lies.
Peacemaker,

I think there is hope for you! I do also think it is frightning! That is what commies do, they repeat a lie loud enough and often enough until it becomes the truth. Look at Joe Wilson, he went around for months spewing lies about the "16 words in Bush's speech" I have heard many libs like WHOOPI spewing the same lies, about the uranium and his wife's name being spilled. Now he turned out to be the liar, but a lot of libs (since the mainstream remains silent on the subjet) will not hear the truth and go on blindly believing Joe Wilson's lies.
Peacemaker,

Opps, didn't mean to post twice. Sorry
Ya' know, KS, All Democrats are not "libs" and all Republicans are not "conservatives". It's just another label....you of all people should know what labels can do...right? I prefer to think of people as people. Weird me! Each person is different than the other...that's what makes the world go 'round, and that's what makes it so interesting. Not all Arabs are terrorists, yet some Americans are. Not all men are assholes; not all women are bitches....you see where I'm going?
The main thing we disagree on, in this forum, isn't as much about politics and what we'd like to see for our country, but the man in charge.
I bet you that I can safely say that each and every person on this earth wants the same thing...to be happy, healthy, loved, safe, secure, etc. We want the so called "American Dream". We want a nice house, a nice car, a good paying job, and a nice happy family. Am I wrong?
I got an email last night from a friend about a Democratic Senator. (She is a Republican). It was sent to her by someone who sent it to her by someone who sent it to her, etc....... It was about an old story that happened to this Senator 35 years ago. Some of the story was true, but most of it was blown so far out of proportion that it ended up being mostly lies...even tho' it was based on fact. This...all to destroy someone in office. Well, it didn't destroy him then, and I doubt if it will, now, but my point is that I just plain don't like that kind of politics. It's dirty and underhanded and dishonest...cheap, yellow journalism, and I'd say the same thing had it been about a Republican Senator, and I'm sure there's one out there we can dig up some dirt on.

Win or lose, hopefully, this country can endure, but I just hate spending the next 4 months listening to dirty, underhanded crap. I DO believe it takes away from the real issues, which is what we all should be interested in...not whether someone had an illegitmate baby when she was 16 or any kind of irrelavent crap like that. I was expected, of course, to pass this email around to all of my friends. Instead, I hit reply to all, and informed them of the true facts of the case, and suggested before they continue to pass that smut online, that they first learn what their talking about.
No you are right Peacemaker! But would it surprise you that you agree with Rush?
"I bet you that I can safely say that each and every person on this earth wants the same thing...to be happy, healthy, loved, safe, secure, etc. We want the so called "American Dream". We want a nice house, a nice car, a good paying job, and a nice happy family." Rush said the same thing verbatum a week ago. The "Liberals" just want to go about things in a different way.
I have a question for you then, you have said in the past ;

"I feel it's just like the Evalgelistic Christians in this country who want to impose their beliefs on me"

Now does this apply to your label rule? That maybe all Christians aren't imposing themselves on you?

And another thing what do you think about "Bush's lies" now that the corner stone of the "16 words" have been demolished? I find it fascinating that all (or most) leftist creeps go around touting that Bush lied when they themselves are the liars! Example: Joe Wilson, Bob Woodard, Richard Clark, Michael Moore etc. ?
Peacemaker:
"I bet you that I can safely say that each and every person on this earth wants the same thing...to be happy, healthy, loved, safe, secure, etc. We want the so called "American Dream". We want a nice house, a nice car, a good paying job, and a nice happy family. Am I wrong?"

No, I don't believe you are wrong. Today, thanks to the leadership and quick action of the administration, we're giving Afghanistan, Iraq a chance to live that dream. Especially in Iraq,where they can now participate in the formation of their own government, rather than getting raped, tortured and maimed for breathing on a picture of Saddam.
If the domino keeps rolling (with American diplomatic pressure), we'll see changes in Pakistan, Iran, Libya and hopefully Israel and the newly drawn Palestine. Cuba is a no-brainer. Once Castro keels over, they'll be smart enough to open the doors for help.
I knew you were on our side!!!!!!!

Both of you should read this great article at:

http://www.frontpagemag.com...

(Elinor Burkett Interview)This is what we're doing in the middle east.

Have you heard of Elinor Burkett? She(a staunch feminist) has good words for President Bush. Please read the whole article.
Now does this apply to your label rule? That maybe all Christians aren't imposing themselves on you?
No, because I didn't say "all" Christians. I said "Evalgelistic Christians", and I'm sure not ALL of them. I've previously said that I try to avoid using words like ALL, NEVER, ALWAYS, etc.
By Evangelistic Christians, I mean those holier-than-thou people who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives, but can't seem to live their own lives the way they preach the rest of us should live ours...my examples were Jimmy Swaggart, Jimmy Baker, etc. These are the Christians that are behind Bush.
I am a christian. I'm just not the kind that will go around (as Neocon said) telling every other religion that they're going to Hell. Evangelists...for another example, Jim Jones, and David Koresh, believe God is talking to them. I believe if they're hearing voices, they need psychiatric help. David Koresh thought he was God. Jim Jones thought He was God, and even Charlie Manson believed he was God. I believe in a different God than Jim Jones, and Charlie Manson...and MY God doesn't whipser in my ear that *I* should be president...or that I should kill people, or that I should tell my followers to drink poison. Isn't it funny how easily people follow men like this? Look what happens to them? Waco....Jonestown....what's next? Evangelistic Christians...like that, scare me.

Oh, and I'm not against you, but not exactly on your side. As I said before, we agree on many things, but differ in others. Again, that's what makes America America! That's what I like about it. If I wanted everyone to look like me, act like me and think like me, I'd just lock myself up in my bedroom and look at myself in the mirror.
Good article, and I agree with about 99% of it. However, this comes from the article itself. When it was suggested that Bush might have an agenda, Burkett commented: Do you think those women CARE if anyone's motivations are pure? They only care that they're defended.

I guess she also agrees that Bush's motivations aren't pure.

Then, all I've heard from you and Neocon is about me being against fundamentalists....Religious fundamentalists...yes!!
Well, here is another comment from Burkett:

We need to stand with them not only because it is right but because we share the same enemy and because strengthening the place of women - politically, economically and socially - is our surest guarantee that we won't have to fight fundamentalists alone.

On this and more...we agree!
"I got an email last night from a friend about a Democratic Senator. (She is a Republican). It was sent to her by someone who sent it to her by someone who sent it to her, etc....... It was about an old story that happened to this Senator 35 years ago. Some of the story was true, but most of it was blown so far out of proportion that it ended up being mostly lies...even tho' it was based on fact. This...all to destroy someone in office. Well, it didn't destroy him then, and I doubt if it will, now, but my point is that I just plain don't like that kind of politics. It's dirty and underhanded and dishonest...cheap, yellow journalism, and I'd say the same thing had it been about a Republican Senator, and I'm sure there's one out there we can dig up some dirt on.

Win or lose, hopefully, this country can endure, but I just hate spending the next 4 months listening to dirty, underhanded crap. I DO believe it takes away from the real issues, which is what we all should be interested in...not whether someone had an illegitmate baby when she was 16 or any kind of irrelavent crap like that. I was expected, of course, to pass this email around to all of my friends. Instead, I hit reply to all, and informed them of the true facts of the case, and suggested before they continue to pass that smut online, that they first learn what their talking about."

Isn't this what the left did to Bush?

So you are comparing Jim Jones, Charlie Manson, David Koresh to Bush/ Evangelical Christians? Is that really fair? Bush has every right to be a Christian, and he is a man of deep faith. Every single President has made decisions based on their beliefs/values. To compare him to David Koresh and Jim Jones is just ridiculous! Do you think Bush was the first Christian President? I hate to tell you but MOST of our Presidents have been deeply religious. Look at our founding fathers. Most of them were deeply religious. If Bush wants to talk about his religious beliefs off the cuff he has every RIGHT to do that. He has never order anyone to do anything Christian. Most of us make judgements based on our morals and values. If you look at our laws they are based on Judeo-Christian values. That is what this country was founded on. Koresh, Jones etc. are CRAZY and as a psychologist I expect you to know the difference.
Neocon,

Excellent article! I was always amazed that the leftist organizations like NOW and even the Human rights organizations aren't behind Bush. The Taliban/ Saddam are so cruel to women as well as their own people. I watched this show on the History Channel and basically Saddam didn't like this man's politics so he took him and beat him up, had his wife raped in front of him, and took thier infant and threw it against the wall. It's little brains were splattered all over the wall. Where is the outrage!?
KS

"Isn't this what the left did to Bush?"

Yes....some of them. There you go with putting everyone in the same cart. Why is everything black and white for you? BIG SHOCKER...the world is mostly gray!

"So you are comparing Jim Jones, Charlie Manson, David Koresh to Bush/ Evangelical Christians? Is that really fair? Bush has every right to be a Christian, and he is a man of deep faith. Every single President has made decisions based on their beliefs/values. To compare him to David Koresh and Jim Jones is just ridiculous! Do you think Bush was the first Christian President? I hate to tell you but MOST of our Presidents have been deeply religious. Look at our founding fathers. Most of them were deeply religious. If Bush wants to talk about his religious beliefs off the cuff he has every RIGHT to do that. He has never order anyone to do anything Christian. Most of us make judgements based on our morals and values. If you look at our laws they are based on Judeo-Christian values. That is what this country was founded on. Koresh, Jones etc. are CRAZY and as a psychologist I expect you to know the difference.
You also seem to either take things I say and ommit words so you can use them to your advantage, or what I say zooms right over your head. I talk about EVANGELISTIC christians, and now we're discussing all presidents being christians. Well, what does this have to do with anything? I could say something on this site about Ted Bundy being a law student and how there were several Senators who thought he was a great guy, and you'd accuse me of saying all Senators were stupid and that all law students were serial killers. Are ALL of you people on the right so narrow? :-)
It is people like Jerry Falwell, who are religious fundamentalists (generally referred to as religious fanatics) who are rallying behind Bush. Now, I didn't say that ALL the people who voted or will vote for Bush are religious fanatics. (Gee, I hate having to explain myself like this). However, the fact remains that he probably wouldn't have WON (LOL) the election had it not been for his CLOSE ties with these religious fanatics. I don't like religious fanatics being in control of people who have power over our laws, etc. If you don't think the people with big money (the ones the candidates crawl in bed with to get elected) rally behind a candidate for a reason, then you are extremely naive'. These people don't give millions of dollars to a candidate because he's cute. They do so in order to get something in return. Things are promised to these people...don't you know that??? Example: A candidate for governor says to the mob..."if you help me get elected, I'll make gambling legal." That's why the mob spends big money and goes out and illicits voters for the candidate they think will give them what they want.
Now, you're going to say I said that Bush is involved with the mob because I used that as an example, too.

Koresh, Jones etc. are CRAZY and as a psychologist I expect you to know the difference.

Yes, they were, but how long did it take for 'normal' people to find this out???? Koresh and Jones were charismatic, and had the ability to make average people believe in what they were saying...why? Because they said what the people needed and wanted to hear. So did Manson. Yes they were crazy...the power they yielded over people made them believe they were God, and, unfortunately, their followers came to believe it to. None of them started out to be crazy. Each and every one of them (with the exception of Manson) started out to do good for people. Jim Jones wanted to be a preacher, and he witnessed blacks being rejected from other churches, so he started a church where blacks, poor people, etc. were shown love and acceptance. Things just got our of hand. His feelings about himself and his power escalated. That's the way it works, and unfortunately for the innocent people, finding out the truth is always a day late and a dollar short. Then we ask ourselves how people could follow someone like that....GOOD QUESTION! However, the answer is fairly simple. They follow because their leader is promising them something the need; long for; believe in, etc. Their leader isolates them (right/left-liberal/conservative) and makes sure they hear nothing but THEIR side of the truth. They begin to believe that everyone ELSE is sick or wrong or crazy. ...blah, blah...I'm doubting that I'm getting any point across, so I'll just stop here.
Here I go again...wasting my time, but I've got a question for you KS.
Ask your husband to ask his father if a soldier can even take a piss without an order from the top. The answer is a flat NO! BUT, look at the guys (and gal) who are being tried for abusing the prisoners at Abu Graib. Yes, what they did was horrible, and yes, especially Lynndie England, seemed to enjoy her duties too much, (personnaly, I believe she was just a slut to start with), but do you really believe that they all did this on their own? They were ordered to do it. Do you see any Generals charged with the crimes? No, and you won't. We always (yep, I used the word 'always') punish the little guy; use him as an example, and the one who gave the orders gets off scott free. Is that fair? The reason for this is because the government wants to protect their own, and wants to direct your attention somewhere else, so you'll forget about who the real guilty party is. Now, everybody's out to nail these lowly soldiers, and, hopefully, we the people are supposed to forget who gave the orders. This way, we've cleared our conscience because we've found somebody guilty...somebody must pay...and the ones behind it are forgotten about and are free to make similar decisions in future situations. That's the American Way!
I am not stupid. Duh! I know thier are lobbiest, but you comparing Bish to religious fanatics like David Koresh was WAY WAY out there! I think your relgious bigotry is getting in the way of your judgement.

I never said the people/ Generals etc. shouldn't be punished, But to be honest, I would rather be at Abu Graib than in a prison run by terrorist! At least you don't get your head sawed off!

"Their leader isolates them (right/left-liberal/conservative) and makes sure they hear nothing but THEIR side of the truth. They begin to believe that everyone ELSE is sick or wrong or crazy. ...blah, blah."

YOU better check yourself before you wreck yourself! I think my points are going over YOUR head! Look at Michael Moore? Most of the left acts like your own very quote. Every buck tooth that doesn't agree with me is stupid white trash. WE must be STUPID or a right wing wacko if we don't go along with their lies. You are all in on thie big conspiracy theory that we are to stu stu stupid to understand! But maybe the brillant minds of the left are the ones being duped? I mean they did swallow EVERYTHING Joe WIlson and Michaled Morre said. And just how did that turn out? :)
"Bish"...I liked that. LOL
Well, KS, again, you don't get it. You take a piece of something said and go off with it.
I didn't compare Bush to Koresh...I compared the religious fanatics backing him to Koresh. Do you just read the parts you want to read, or do you read the entire thing? Well, I guess the answer to that is obvious. Belive Michael Moore? Now that's an interesting statement. You keep bringing up Michael Moore. He's just a fat guy who does documentaries. That's about all I know about your Michael Moore. I DO know that while watching a trailer of Farhrenheit 9/11 that he put on actual film coverage of Bush saying things that we ALL know Bush DID say. I didn't see the movie, so can't comment on it. You sound like a broken record. How many times have I heard the names, Michael Moore and Joe Wilson. I don't even know who the Hell Joe Wilson is, and don't give a damn who he is or what he has to say. I don't base my beliefs or knowledge on what one or two people left or right have to say. It's apparent you're stuck on such things.
You're stuck on Right Wing...Left Wing...Libs, Conservatives, and "stu stu stupid"!!!
People who continually have to keep posting that their not stupid...well, it makes me wonder why.
BTW, if you want to read a book that's very accurate about Viet Nam, get "The Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brien. My sister is using that book to teach her class.
Another thing, KS...what do you teach YOUR students about what's going on in the world today? Is it your own biased opinion like the teacher in Korea, or do you give them both sides and let THEM decide. We ARE supposed to be teaching our kids to think, and not be robots, isn't that correct?
Some people believe God created man. Others believe in the theory of evolution. Which do YOU think we should teach our students? Did you say both...none...or what YOU believe?
"I never said the people/ Generals etc. shouldn't be punished"
Please show me where I said you did.
"YOU better check yourself before you wreck yourself!
Now THAT is a real intelligent comment! :-)
Furthormore, maybe I think YOU are seeing things as black and white and YOU are being narrow minded when it comes to Evangelical Chrisitans! How come everytime you make broad generalizations when someone calls you on it you say "obviously I didn't mean all" I am just once again pointing out the hypocrisy of the left. Replace Evangelical Christian with "blacks, Jews, gays etc." and you'll see what I mean. The left feels that it is ok to be a religious bigot toward Christians, but if Rush Limbaugh or anyone even so much as whispers anything toward ANY other group then the "Shit hits the fan!" Pardon my French.

Then by your own arguement how could anyone fall into voting for Bush? Is he a bumbling fool or charismatic? You guys want it both ways! Is he stupid or some kind of criminal mastermind?

P.S. My husband said his dad has commented on some soldiers were "F*&^%$ Psycho" Some soldiers went nuts and did things that weren't commanded to do, like rape women and steal things. The Generals didn't tell them to do that!
Oh, so all the soldiers at Abu Graib went psycho? I suppose it was from all the horror they saw in that prison...comparing what the Viet Nam pychos witnessed in Nam. ALL of 'em?
Woah, we should start scrutinizing who we allow into our military. In fact, just the other day I read where some juvenile deliquents were given the option (by the judge) go to prison or join the military. What do you suppose they did?
"Replace Evangelical Christian with "blacks, Jews, gays etc." and you'll see what I mean.

How about Racist, militant blacks, or perverted Catholic priests who molest alter boys, or teachers who molest their students, or husbands who kill their wives for insurance money...or the disgruntled postal worker who goes in and starts shooting innocent employees?

Does this mean I'm agains blacks, priests, teachers, husbands, and postal workers? NO! So, if I refer to perverted Catholic priests who molest alter boys, I'm saying just that. Then someone like you comes along and shortens it to "I hate priests".
The left feels that it is ok to be a religious bigot toward Christians,
First of all, you don't know how the "left" feels. You may know what you read in newspapers (or newspaper as you seem to insist your read...just one FOX), and you may even know some people who are "lefties" as you say, but you don't know that many people, so don't presume to speak for them and call them "left". Notice how you, again, shortened EVANGELISTIC christians to "christians". Can I assume you are one since you are so on the defensive about them?
but if Rush Limbaugh or anyone even so much as whispers anything toward ANY other group then the "Shit hits the fan!" Pardon my French.
Your French is pardoned, but to me, Rush Limbaugh can say anything he wants. So can Howard Stern, or YOU or ME, or Whoopi Goldberg or anyone else. I don't have to listen....neither do you. There are big, opinionated assholes on both sides of the fence, and, personally speaking, I don't pay any attention to any of them. I choose to see what's going on in the world...not by what some fat opinionted idiot who gets paid for mouthing off and firing people up says, but by seeing what's going on out there. It's not that hard.
"Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton."

This was a comment (partly humorous, partly truth) that was on page 1 of this forum.

EVANGELISTIC christians (most of them) believe that is true. Jesus loves you, but teaches you to have everybody else that's different. Woah! Well, we must have a different Jesus. The Jesus I know...well, as you would say, the Jesus of the Left...doesn't HATE anybody!!! He doesn't even hate killers. He's a forgiving sorta dude.
"Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless you someday run for governor of California as a Republican."

Another amusing but true comment. If we're not like you, we must be degenerates; deviants, etc.
"If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won’t have sex."

This can be added to "If we outlaw abortion, our children won't get pregnant and will keep their babies"...both are about as stupid as anything I've ever heard. Do you really believe this??
Will according to the Ed Code we can't teach either! We can only teach religion if it pertains to historical aspects. YOU should know that. As far as polictically, again from the ed code we are not suppose to teach our opinions (Even though all my professors in college did and even told us who to vote for). I really don't think my first graders would enjoy the Vietnam book. :) I teach my kids to think, but first and second graders are just beginning to leaarn about life let alone politics.

What about people who are constantly telling everyone how smart they are? :)

As for Michael Moore and Joe WIlson, I'm sure a guy that spends all day reading all the papers you proclaimed to read would know. MY POINT which is the one you aren't getting, is that YOU, yes YOU, have in subtle ways, said Bush was a liar, and a religious fanatic (God whispers in his ear). Where did you get that info? From the Michael Moores and Joe Wilsons of the left! If you hate religious fanatics then you are by definition a bigot.

Another question, at least Zarkon hates America because he has to live in Austria, but since you hate America so much why don't you go live in Europe since we lie to our people, ruin the enviroment, send people off to war etc.? I can see it now you and ZarKon arm and arm smoking all the pot you want under the cute little tree in the park. Then after that you can go get some prostituites.
You really don'y know anything about God or the Bible. The Bible doesn't to teach you to hate. Jesus use to hang out with prostitutes and thugs. The Bible is about forgivness and repenting. God doesn't HATE people who do things that are against his laws. That's the whole point! That is why he sent Jesus. MY cousin is a homosexual. I love him as much as I ever did. There are consequences in the Bible for bad behavior in life. Think about it if you smoke and drink and have unprotected sex what will happen? You are going to get sick eventually. That is why God tells you not to do those things. Have you ever read the first testiment? Talk about consequences! Explaining religion to you would be hard becasue it boils down to faith. Jesus is full of love and acceptance. We don't believe that people on the left are horrible, and we don't hate them. And once again you go back to calling we stupid. I already went over abortion with you! Scroll up for my comments on that. Christains don't hate you. The only hate is from the you guys hating on Christains.
I mean calling us stupid.
I must apologize, but I'm having a wonderful time reading this dialogue. I just can't stop laughing.
But your generalizations, Peacemaker, are fairly large and very broad, creating an atmosphere of fear-mongering that Kerrysucks and I are trying to address..(note: I know we generalize as well, that's the nature of this dialogue. We can't write books on this site to get our point across)

Of course Bush wants the vote of the christian right; just as Kerry wants the vote of the scum of the left ( Moore, Soros, MOVEON.org and the PETA freaks).

But as far as legislation goes, it's the "normal" christians who are also supporting Bush, and in far greater numbers. THEY are the ones who will vote Bush in, based on his values and their reflection to their own. A VAST majority of people support banning homosexuals from marriage (not a federal amendment, but perhaps, without a maverick court-state laws). Even the Dem leadership.
A growing percentage believe Roe V Wade was wrong, now (40 percent, or more).
MOST supported the partial birth abortion ban.

As I said before, these social laws, including prohibition, smoking, etc. develop from grass roots average Joes in this country. Evangelists, Fundamentalists, are a small portion of the majority. I support them, as does, I suspect, Kerrysucks. We are those average people who are the footsoldiers of America. The left has footsoldiers as well. It's beautiful.

Peacemaker said: "First of all, you don't know how the "left" feels... but you don't know that many people, so don't presume to speak for them and call them "left"

You seem flustered, but let me remind you, your posts didn't say "some evangelists", or "some degenerate few"; the posts were generalized. One sentence even said it was the evangelists who made up the christians voting for Bush.:
"By Evangelistic Christians, I mean those holier-than-thou people who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives, but can't seem to live their own lives the way they preach the rest of us should live ours...my examples were Jimmy Swaggart, Jimmy Baker, etc. These are the Christians that are behind Bush."
Now I know that's not what you meant, but read the last sentence.
And now read this:

"However, the fact remains that he probably wouldn't have WON (LOL) the election had it not been for his CLOSE ties with these religious fanatics"
Those fanatics make up a SMALL percentage of all those who voted for Bush. But even so, that sentence is also pointless in meaning. Come on, Gore would have LOST by more had the fringe wackjobs not voted for him as well.
It doesn't mean anything. Bush needs their vote, just as any politician needs a vote. They (the christian right) have not influenced Bush at all these last four years.

You want to see some real nutcases? I read of a European group on the Drudge Report that goes way beyond sanity. This leftist group, attempting to save the rainforests, consists of porn actors (and actresses). They call themselves, "F*** for Forest", and literally do the mombo on concert stages. Why? They want to bring awareness to what's happening to our world forests. Uhhhh...if they're goodlooking, they're only giving the audience cheap thrills. That's even better than PETA going naked to make a point about animal skins.
Peacemaker, I'm sure Kerry would love their vote if they were americans, he would just leave his clothes on.

And I have to agree with Kerrysucks. Listen, the new book titled "What happened to Kansas" (something like that) attempts to conclude that the conservative ideals are merely a "Jim Jonesing" ploy to create a mass of robotic, braindead conservative-voters in America. In other words, we're stupid and deranged, while the ideals of the left is "normal" and "intellectual". In news last year, a group of "psycologists", that's right, your profession, concluded the conservative mind-set is actually a form of mental disorder brought on by unrealistic fears of the unknown and a lack of open-mindedness.

This is the crap we have to endure. We'll keep on using Michael Moore as a great example. He takes "true events" and "real footage", but fills the gaps in between the footage with complete bullshit, creating a complete fabrication of reality, and calling the finished work a "Documentray". Our benevolent governor loved the documentary (Napolitano); the Democratic leadership has called this great stuff. It reminds me of what Hitler's propaganda machine did in the 1930's. The difference, of corse, is that the majority of people are too smart for his shit, and he's not smart enough to be an evil Nazi filmmaker.
But Peacemaker, that's scary how people swallow his shit, like it's honey. It ain't. His shit is lumpy and filled with more than corn.
Neocon,
LOL! Once again right on the money!

Couldn't have said it better myself!
neocon wrote
ZarKon,
Greetings from planet Earth! So do you think it was shot on the same sound stage as the moon landing? Make sure when you travel that you don't fall off our flat Earth. :)

No greetings required, I´m pretty sure I´ve been here longer than you. Thanks for providing a really fine example of ignoring
the issue and trying to discredit me. Very revealing.
The said propaganda scam is very well documented, the PR firm
is located in NYC as far as I can remember. Suggest you get to
work and search the web, I´m not doing it for you.

Glad to see the theme of religion has come to the front now. I will post on this after I get back from Bosnia Herzegovina, a place I have to visit regularly. You see, neocon, I get my info
straight from the horses mouth
Zarkon,
It wasn't Neocon, it was me who said that, OH MY GOD! PLEASE TELL ME YOU DON"T THINK AMERICANS SAWED OFF NICK BERG'S?! WHY? WHAT WOULD WE GAIN?
I am not ignoring anything is just think that it is pretty "Out there." So because it comes for a PR fim in NYC it is true?
Sorry I forgot to add HEAD, as in you lost yours!
Oh wonderful, Zarkon will discuss religion....I can't wait.....
Neocon,
Go to this site;
http://marc.perkel.com/

LMAO

OMFG! IT'S THE SAME CHAIR! LOL!

That is hilarious!
Sorry Neocon the first one didn't work but the second site should work! I think it has to be true! It must have came from NYC! LOL
I wrote:

"The Jesus I know...well, as you would say, the Jesus of the Left...doesn't HATE anybody!!! He doesn't even hate killers. He's a forgiving sorta dude."

Then you wrote:

You really don'y know anything about God or the Bible. The Bible doesn't to teach you to hate. Jesus use to hang out with prostitutes and thugs. The Bible is about forgivness and repenting. God doesn't HATE people who do things that are against his laws.
KS. I think you just like to argue. It seems to me that we both said the same things. I was....if you could possibly read what I DID say, you might notice that the beginning of my statement started with a (supposed to be funny but true) comment regarding what one had to think in order to be a Republican.
"The only hate is from the you guys hating on Christains. "

KS...who are "you guys"? I am only one person, and (showing everyone who reads these postings that you are OBVIOUSLY NOT reading them), you should try to find where I said I hated Christians. I never used the word "hate", and I admitted to be a Christian. HELLOOOOOOOO!!!!

I give up trying to get you to undertand things. It's apparent you have a reading problem...dyslexia? I don't know. Some reading problem, apparently.
I just found this statement written on this forum as well, and have to ask myself (I realize you don't have to ask yourself anything as you already have all the answers) IF this is a true statement, and I do NOT know if it is or not, and don't know where the writer got his information, but IF it's true...wonder why?

Remeber 93% of news reporters consider themselves liberals!
Do you suppose IF IT'S TRUE...that maybe...just maybe it might be because the news reporters are out there getting the news? Maybe it's because they're the ones in the meetings with the president; because they hear and see what is really going on out there...because they go to other countries and see what's really going on over there?
Proving, once again, that you have a reading problem, I have said, more than once that I am proud to be an American. BTW, I've fought for the country, and I've been an American before anyone ever thought of having you. However, I don't follow blindly. If I (and my generation) followed blindly, blacks would still be at the back of the bus...or not allowed on at all. You, would be changing diapers, barefoot and pregnant, and civil rights would just be two words in the dictionary.

I must have misunderstood you. I thought you said, somewhere that you taught 8th grade. I can admit when I make an error. I can also read. I tutor children in reading. If you want some help over the summer, give me a call. It's apparent you need help with reading, understanding, and tolerance.
"In news last year, a group of "psycologists", that's right, your profession, concluded the conservative mind-set is actually a form of mental disorder brought on by unrealistic fears of the unknown and a lack of open-mindedness."

ROTFLMAO!! Well, there's something to think about! I'll be checking my new DSM-IV to see when they add that disorder. After all, if you have that along with your your obvious ADD, you can get help.

Hey Zarq: Got any room under that tree? LOL
Oh, one more thing, KS. That cousin of yours....the gay one....the one you profess to "love". What if he/she falls in love and wants to get married? Does our constitution allow EVERYBODY EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW...or just the people you feel should have them? I mean years ago, people like you thought blacks were cursed by the devil and that they weren't really people. That why they thought they could OWN them. They had to drink out of separate water fountains because smart, religious people like you were afraid they'd turn black or get some vile disease if they drank from the same fountain....and allowing them to go to school with your precious white kids....NEVER! Every generation there's someone different to hate....someone different to fear. A few years ago people like you were afraid to get near someone with AIDS. Truth is...it's uneducated people who have such fears followed by hatred.
Being a woman, you'd think you'd know that, but then of course, people like me helped pave the way for people like you so that you could be free to pursue a career that no woman could pursue when I was growing up. You're welcome KS.
Oops! Forgot one thing. You asked about GWB and God whispering in his ear. Well, sweetie, you don't know EVERYTHING GW has said, then, do you?
HE is the one who said, "I believe God wants me to be president"!! I didn't make that up or read it in the Inquirer. I heard him say it, and so did everyone else who was watching his speech...and no, I can't remember exactly which one, because it was a few years ago, and I didn't know I'd be on trial. But you can believe anything you want, I don't care, but I know what I heard, and I know what he said, and my ears are just fine, thank you.
Peacemaker, Since you can't win on facts, You go right straight for insulting someones intelligence!

you said, " This can be added to "If we outlaw abortion, our children won't get pregnant and will keep their babies"...both are about as stupid as anything I've ever heard. Do you really believe this?? "

"Proving, once again, that you have a reading problem,"

Geez what kind of Psychologist are you? Do you insult the students like that?

"I can admit when I make an error. I can also read. I tutor children in reading"
"If you want some help over the summer, give me a call. It's apparent you need help with reading, understanding, and tolerance."

HATE HATE HATE, YOU AREN'T ACTING VERY MUCH THE THE "LEFTIST JESUS" THAT YOU SAY YOUN ARE!

On to The news reporters, do you think it might have anything to do with their arrogance? If they do get the news then "Correctly" then why do they only report one side of the news??? They didn't report about Joe Wilson, or section 15 of the 9/11 Commisions Report?? They slant the news all over the place because they WANT their power! I am surprised that at least you AGREE with me that 93% are libs! LOL!

So I have you to thank for not being barefoot and preganant????!!! LMAO
Oh Peacemaker....now you're starting to act my age (hahaha). Congratulations. Now, on your next post, just let it out, no holds bared...call us a bunch of #$%#%$#%$#$ Republicans, and @#$@$#@$# conservative Nazi Bastards!!!!

Can I get off the subject? I'm a little retarded on internet lingo. Can someone please explain:

LMAO; ROTFLMAO; OFMG(IS THAT WHAT i THINK IT IS?)
Wait- let my potty mouth try:
Laugh My Ass Off; Oh My Fucking God; Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off
I'm a GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!

I went to that website, Kerrysucks...don't you know that's the truth? Excuse me while I fall off my chair; oh wait- ROTFLMAO!
So this is the truth and NO SPIN Zarkon wants US to read! Peacemaker, you have to see it to believe it, you'll say-OMFG and LMAO, or even ROTF!!
Now I'm getting the hang of it.
"A few years ago people like you were afraid to get near someone with AIDS. Truth is...it's uneducated people who have such fears followed by hatred"

First of all in the words of Ronald Reagan... "Well... There you ago again!" with the hypocrisy!

My cousin is not leagally married but he has been with the same partner for about 18 years! I don't tell him what to do! I don't think it's right but, no I don't go to marched and beat up gays. I really don't talk about it much at all. You have talked about gays more than I have.

So now who is generalizing hmmmmmm???????? You are assuming that I am a homophob, racist etc.! MORE NAME CALLING from the "LEFTIST JESUS!" You better watch out our you are going to end up in the "LEFTIST HELL" I am already here, it's called Los Angeles!

Precious white kids?? I don't think I will get any of those! My husband is Mexican! HIs grandparents marched with Ceasar Chavez! So put that in your pot pipe and smoke it!
Neocon,
Wasn't that great! OMFG its the same chair! They are all a bunch of white fat men wear, GASP, bullet proof vests!
LMAO! I was actually crying when I read it! It is just so ridculous! It must be true because it came from NYC!

Zark a have a site for you,

http://digilander.libero.it...
Sorry here is is again

http://digilander.libero.it...
The third one works!

The first two are not working but the third I think Zark will find very informative!
Kerrysucks:
I wonder if you remember Clarence, who was with the beatles? Tragedy...truly a tragedy.
Peacemaker,
So if God is God, then just like the lib journalist, he would know all the facts right? So that is good enough for me! He should be presisdent! (Wink wink).

Bush said he felt a "calling" to be President! SO?! Mother Theresa and nuns and priest feel that they have been "called" to do something. I never heard him say that in a speech. "MY FELLOW AMERICANS LAST NIGHT GOD HAS WHISPERED IN MY EAR AND TOLD ME TO BECOME YOUR PRESIDENT." I don't think you heard that in a speech, it was in Bob or "BOOB" Woodard's book!
NEOCON,
YES! the Clarences, "She Loves You" was originally titled "She loves you, Man" She Got A Ticket to Ride But the Bitch Don't Care, Man." and my favoirtite, "Help Me, Man"!

LOL!
I gotta go because the illuminati has reversed tht polarity on my tv set and is watching me!
hey kerrysucks
I got the wrong name, you got hold of the wrong post. I was referring to the "Baby´s ripped from incubators" scam during
Gulf Wars part 1
So just so you have no excuse here´s a link

http://www.killian.com/earl...
Zark, I was refering to your Nick Berg "speculation"
You wrote,
"Take a closer look at the "Men In Black" standing behind in the
photo´s. Look quite "FAT" don´t they, Notice the Body Posture,
arabs don´t stand like that, We could be looking at American
"private sector" warriors here. I notice nobody has posted a
comment about the "babys ripped from incubators" scam. Admit
it, you just can´t handle the truth."

Then I wrote about it taking place on the same sound stage as the moon landing. That is why I put the greetings for Earth qoute!

Oh Boy, here we go with more "speculation"
Posted on 07/16/04 at 05:29
Zark,
They article about the Babies. Here in America I never heard of the orignial story about the baby, or if I did I don't remember it, anyway I don't remember it being a big story. The PR from NYC is about this. Ok. FIne. It just was never "BIG NEWS" here!
""If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won’t have sex."

This can be added to "If we outlaw abortion, our children won't get pregnant and will keep their babies"...both are about as stupid as anything I've ever heard. Do you really believe this??

Please don't take half-truths and copy them...take the whole comment.
Speaking of not "winning on facts" why is it that you are unable to answer any of my questions. If you tutor reading, and you can't seem to read anything on this page any better than you do, it's no wonder our students are graduating from high school illiterate. I'm sorry KS, but you're the one who is so stuck on your own "I know everything and you know nothing" attitude, that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.
No, I don't talk to my students this way. I don't have to...and I sure hope you don't talk to your students the way you've talked to me.

"My cousin is not leagally married but he has been with the same partner for about 18 years! I don't tell him what to do! I don't think it's right but, no I don't go to marched and beat up gays. I really don't talk about it much at all. You have talked about gays more than I have."

I didn't bring the subject up. You and Neocon brought it up...go back and look. However, the fact that you don't talk about it is about what I would have expected. Do you have the attitude that if you don't talk about it it will go away?
Don't you think that your cousin and his/her partner have a right to the same privileges that you do?
"YOU AREN'T ACTING VERY MUCH THE THE "LEFTIST JESUS" THAT YOU SAY YOUN ARE!

God, KS, when did I EVER say I was Jesus????? What are you smoking?????????

OMFG? Oh My Fuckin' God????

Well, now if that ain't christian???

You know something?
A mind is like a parachute. It only works when its open.

Happy Landing!
"If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won’t have sex."
This can be added to "If we outlaw abortion, our children won't get pregnant and will keep their babies"...
both are about as stupid as anything I've ever heard. Do you really believe this??
LOL, No, silly but you do! I got that from what the Republicans believe on this forum. You ARE a Republican aren't you? You do believe that abortion should be illegal, don't you? Well, then saying that "If we outlaw abortion, our children won't get pregnant and will keep their babies"...
IS about as stupid as anything I've ever heard.

See, KS You're not paying attention.
Kerrysucks wrote
Zarkon,
It wasn't Neocon, it was me who said that, OH MY GOD! PLEASE TELL ME YOU DON"T THINK AMERICANS SAWED OFF NICK BERG'S?! WHY? WHAT WOULD WE GAIN?

Same as the "Iraqi Troops Rip Babies from incubators" LIE.
"Not a big story", "or I´ve forgotten" It´s called PROPAGANDA
It relies on you forgetting the old lies.

Think Vietnam, Think "Corporal Calley" search.
add the results to the baby scam, think the unthinkable.
PRIVATE SECTOR WARRIORS now outnumber the non American
military forces in Iraq. One bunch has just been caught running
there own torture set-up!
I´m not saying those guys in black are definately American, I´m
pointing out that it may not be a good move to always believe the official version that you passionately want to believe.
I would rather not believe it myself, but there´s all this "Hidden
History" out there.
LOL! YOU ARE BACK TO INSULTING ME! I haven't said anything about your intelligence. Or that you can't read! The "tolerant" person that you are has managed to insult illerate and dyslexics too!

What I menat to highlight was the
"both are about as stupid as anything I've ever heard. Do you really believe this??
And as for OMFG that was part of the site! I was quoting it to Neocon!

"Well, now if that ain't christian???"


So now you are judging me too? You opened minded, tolerant person you!
You are the one that said "The Jesus I know...well, as you would say, the Jesus of the Left...doesn't HATE anybody!!! He doesn't even hate killers. He's a forgiving sorta dude."

I was joking and I was refering to the "Jesus of the Left" that you seem to follow. But oh "Jesus of the Left" cover your ears becasue the ever loving, toerant. Peacemaker (ironic) is not following your ways listen to what he has to say;
kklk
"If you tutor reading, and you can't seem to read anything on this page any better than you do, it's no wonder our students are graduating from high school illiterate."

I have answered all of your questions, and yes you tried to make Neocon and I and all "Evangelical Christians" out to be homophobs! You brought up gays!

"Oh, one more thing, KS. That cousin of yours....the gay one....the one you profess to "love". What if he/she falls in love and wants to get married? Does our constitution allow EVERYBODY EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW...or just the people you feel should have them?"

"You know something?
A mind is like a parachute. It only works when its open. "

Look in the mirror! You are not what I will call open minded! I got you all worked up and you resort to name calling! You think I am a "Stupid Christian Conservatitve from the Right." Face it!

The problem with people like you is you profess to be opened minded, but when it comes to discussing deviant behavior you tend qualify it with the persons race, religion, or profession. Why can't it just be, child molesters, psychos or whatever. I see people as just that, people, not Catholics, Blacks or Postal workers. By using these qualifiers you are doing exactly what you claim to stand against. But then again what do I know, if it wasn't for you I would be barefoot and pregnant.
Peacemaker,

"Both are about as stupid as anything I've ever heard. Do you really believe this?? "

This is very condescending. That is my POINT, if people don't agree with you than they must be stupid.


The point of the abortion agrument isn't keeping kids from having sex! It has become another easy way out, if you don't want a job go on welfare, if you don't want a baby just kill it. What is next, well your kids will do drugs anyways so the school should hand out clean hypodermic needles and spoons to cook up their heroin? It's not the schools place! Children need to learn reponsibility! The function of school should be to teach the three Rs!
Zark,

I think you spend way to much time looking up articles that deal with hating America. That brings me to one conclusion you must be what we Americans call a "Player Hater". I don't mena to offend it just makes sense. You economy is in the toilet so you want to live here. Hey that's ok, I'm with ya!

I mean there isn't a mad dash of people rushing to Austria to live.

So I will just leave it at that with you. These articles that you have are a little out there. No offense, and you are totally entitled to believe them, if you want to.

I don't think America is perfect, but if is wasn't for us, pretty much all of Europe wouldn't have their freedom.
Zark,

What is your point about Corporal Calley?
I think the Village was Mei Lei or something similar, it was a
classic MASSACRE carried out by US troops and it wasn´t only
heads they cut off. I don´t hate America and NO WAY do I want
to live there. It´s not MY economy, and you aint seen nuthin yet.

There are THOUSANDS of people rushing to live in Austria, the
average that the boarder guards catch daily is around 100. Once
again thanks for providing a perfect example of how your corporate media is skewing your world picture. DID you know
that 76% of your media is controlled by just 2 big companies.
WESTINGHOUSE and GENERAL ELECTRIC the two biggest "War for Profit" Corporations on the planet.
Have you heard about the new method of making life hard for
overseas journalists now being practiced in the USA, I doubt it
check it out. Seems Bush & Co are planning something big on
the home front and don´t want the rest of the world to know
about it.
"I don't think America is perfect, but if is wasn't for us, pretty much all of Europe wouldn't have their freedom."

Pure speculation! NOBODY KNOWS what would have happened
if the US had not entered WW2. There is a tendency for Totalitarian Regimes to self destruct so my attitude is "Give em
enough rope and they will hang themselves".
"You are not what I will call open minded! I got you all worked up and you resort to name calling!"

This is an example of what Kerrysucks views as open-minded!

Just a few tidbits from the past:
Kerrysucks says:

"You are quick to come here and repeat lies like "We lost hundreds of thousand of innocents in Viet Nam, and it's a no-brainer that we shouldn't have been there. It was not a necessary war." Have you actually done any reading on the subject or do you get all of your info from TV and the Movies? You probably also believe that the only people who died in the war were poor minorities who weren't able to get out of serving because they weren't rich and white. You come on here spouting lots of "facts" that are nothing more than stereotypes. Those sort of "Everybody knows that all American GIs in Vietnam were baby killers" Talk about those who don't know history being doomed to repeat it. Learn the real truth about things like Vietnam before you come here spouting them as absolute truths."

This was said, of course, by someone who's father in law served in a war he refuses to talk about, but kerrysucks knows everything there is to know about the war, and I know nothing...because I was there. Speaking of the pot calling the kettle black.

Kerrysucks says:
"Peacemaker that link, I'm confuseed, was that the DNC website??? It sounds like the same crap as the DNC is spewing. You are always saying that we are "deluded" but what about the Michaels Moore rheteric that you seem to believe?"

In this statement, you are saying that I believe in Michael Moore’s rhetoric that I believe in. You know nothing about what I believe in. This is apparent. Again, because you don't seem to read the postings… I never said that I believed in Michael Moore. I only said that some of the stuff in his documentary was actual footage of Bush saying what Bush said. I didn't see the movie...as I said, if you had read the post, and couldn't comment on it. So, you, being the nice, polite, non-sarcastic, (no innuendos) kinda gal, wouldn't be calling me names or insinuating that I'm full of shit would you?

"Isn't that the whole point? They bombed the USS Cole because they hate us? 9/11 because they hate us? So what is the answer to sit here and do nothing? We did that for 8 years during the Clinton years! Terrorists want us dead! Europeans hated us long before Bush too!"
My comment about this was that if everybody in the world hates me, I'd have to wonder why? I'm sure you're reason is because they're all jealous. Is that the way you looked at things in school when someone didn't like you?...Of course, not. Everybody loves you, right?
You accuse us/me of not looking at the whole picture....I'm afraid from everything you've said here, it's YOU who doesn't look at the whole picture...just your narrow little view of your narrow little world.

Kerrysucks says:
"The whole world comes running to the good ole USA for EVERYTHING! Then when we save their asses they tell us how horrible we are! Including the libs!"

So, now, we libs (I've professed many times I am not a lib, but you don't read, or choose to ignore) think the USA is horrible, correct?


Kerrysucks says:

"You two think you are so "enlightened" well why don't you two stop watching "LEFTIST" spun news and try getting you news from FOX News or RUSH for once."

Speaking of narrow, shallow and close-minded, are Fox and Rush the only places you get your information? I'm sure you missed the part where I said that I read ALL the newspapers, and watch what goes on on TV, along with reading articles from other newspapers around the world. So, my views are obviously a little more well-rounded than yours. Of course, EVERY OTHER paper and news show is WRONG because they don't all agree with FOX and Rush...LOL. Speaking of fat men with big mouths who couldn't get a real job if they tried. Anybody could get up and spout off their opinions...that doesn't take much of a brain….and, of course, the more controversial those opinions are, the people you get stirred up, which means more ratings… more money….you get where I’m headed, don’t you?
Kerrysucks says:

"Stop listening to the pinko, commie, hippie, crap that you listen to and try looking outside your box!"

My suggestion to you, KS is to read the above posting from yourself, and see if YOU can escape Fox and Rush long enough to broaden YOUR horizons and try looking outside YOUR little box!!! Oh, and as for how you don't call people names...."pinko, commie, hippie"...of course you don't. You wouldn't know a pinko, a commie, or a hippie if you tripped over one. These are just words you hear from RUSH now doubt. If you do know what these are, please...answer the question, like you've always done before, and tell me what they are. See if you can do it without running to someone else for help.

Kerrysucks says:
"Being a conservative we can't escape the main stream press! I force myself to listen to them anyway because I don't want to be in the dark like YOU! I resent being talked down to like conservatives are stupid!"
Contradiction, here, KS. You listen to them or you don't. You just said we should all get our news from Fox and Rush. I suppose it’s really hard to force yourself to listen to other’s opinions…gee, you might learn something. Try not to force yourself. Just stay with Fox and Rush.
Kerrysucks says:
“I am a christian too, and the left which is soooooo tolerant, amazes me on how much they hate christians. This country was founded on judeo-christian values.”

You’re record is stuck again, KS. You’re so stuck on right and left. Is this a childhood thing? I have already told you, if you had read it, that I am not LEFT. However, you are saying here, that if I don’t agree with your politics that I am not a Christian and not only am I not a Christian, but that I HATE them, as well.
This, of course, is not an insult, is it, KS?
It appears that YOU are the one stuck in a small box.

I’ll repeat my last statement: A mind is like a parachute. It only works when it’s open.
It’s a shame you feel you have to force yourself to even try to open it by saying that you force yourself to listen to other’s views….meanwhile, making sure your mind is totally closed on the idea that something they say might have merit.

As for your comment that at least I agree that 93% of the news media says…blah, blah, blah….IF, again you had read the post, you would have read that I didn’t know if that was a fact or where they even got the number, so it wasn’t MY statement in the first place.
My point to you is that if the WHOLE outside world hates us (your words, not mine) and 93% (IF that’s true) of the media thinks YOU are wrong, couldn’t there be the slightest, teeniest, minutest possibility that if the majority of people think you’re wrong that you just might be????? I’m sure you won’t even consider the possibility, but it’s out there floating around, if you can ever climb out of YOUR little dark box.
Zarq...let me correct you. It's Lt. William Calley. He was with a Captain Medina. If others on this site would like to read the truth, it's on many websites. I found the most accurate one to be on a UMKC site in the law library.

I'd love to post it here, but it's much too long. If anyone has Webferret (I suppose you can use dogpile or any other search engine) just type in Lt. William Calley...or even just the name Calley will bring it up.

Here is just one small excerpt.

"An army helicopter piloted by Chief Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson arrived in the My Lai vicinity about 9 a.m. Thompson noticed dead and dying civilians all over the village. Thompson repeatedly saw young boys and girls being shot at point-blank range. Thompson, furious at what he saw, reported the wanton killings to brigade headquarters [THOMPSON'S STORY].
Meanwhile, the rampage below continued. Calley was at the drainage ditch on the eastern edge of the village, where about seventy to eighty old men, women, and children not killed on the spot had been brought. Calley ordered the dozen or so platoon members there to push the people into the ditch, and three or four GIs did. Calley ordered his men to shoot into the ditch. Some refused, others obeyed. One who followed Calley's order was Paul Meadlo, who estimated that he killed about twenty-five civilians. (Later Meadlo was seen, head in hands, crying.) Calley joined in the massacre. At one point, a two-year-old child who somehow survived the gunfire began running towards the hamlet. Calley grabbed the child, threw him back in the ditch, then shot him."
Here is the beginning of the article which might tell you what Zarq is getting at.

An Introduction to the My Lai Courts-Martial
By Doug Linder
Two tragedies took place in 1968 in Viet Nam. One was the massacre by United States soldiers of as many as 500 unarmed civilians-- old men, women, children-- in My Lai on the morning of March 16. The other was the cover-up of that massacre.
U. S. military officials suspected Quang Ngai Province, more than any other province in South Viet Nam, as being a Viet Cong stronghold. The U. S. targeted the province for the first major U.S. combat operation of the war. Military officials declared the province a "free-fire zone" and subjected it to frequent bombing missions and artillery attacks. By the end of 1967, most of the dwellings in the province had been destroyed and nearly 140,000 civilians left homeless. Not surprisingly, the native population of Quang Ngai Province distrusted Americans. Children hissed at soldiers. Adults kept quiet.
Two hours of instruction on the rights of prisoners and a wallet-sized card "The Enemy is in Your Hands" seemed to have little impact on American soldiers fighting in Quang Ngai. Military leaders encouraged and rewarded kills in an effort to produce impressive body counts that could be reported to Saigon as an indication of progress. GIs joked that "anything that's dead and isn't white is a VC" for body count purposes. Angered by a local population that said nothing about the VC's whereabouts, soldiers took to calling natives "gooks."
Charlie Company came to Viet Nam in December, 1967. It located in Quang Ngai Province in January, 1968, as one of the three companies in Task Force Barker, an ad hoc unit headed by Lt. Col. Frank Barker, Jr. Its mission was to pressure the VC in an area of the province known as "Pinkville." Charlie Company's commanding officer was Ernest Medina, a thirty-three-year-old Mexican-American from New Mexico who was popular with his soldiers. One of his platoon leaders was twenty-four-year-old William Calley. Charlie Company soldiers expressed amazement that Calley was thought by anyone to be officer material. One described Calley as"a kid trying to play war." [LINK TO CHAIN OF COMMAND DIAGRAM] Calley's utter lack of respect for the indigenous population was apparent to all in the company. According to one soldier, "if they wanted to do something wrong, it was alright with Calley." The soldiers of Charlie Company, like most combat soldiers in Viet Nam, scored low on military exams. Few combat soldiers had education beyond high school.
Seymour Hersh wrote that by March of 1968 "many in the company had given in to an easy pattern of violence." Soldiers systematically beat unarmed civilians. Some civilians were murdered. Whole villages were burned. Wells were poisoned. Rapes were common.

This article also goes on to say that MOST of the soldiers coming back made it clear that they believed the war was wrong. And, please, KS, don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. That is the time that I was over there, and these are not isolated incidences. Cover ups are common place, here, and it is only years later that they are brought out, ex: the Kennedy assassination...of course you'll never really get the whole truth about that.
Peacmaker,

My whole point that I was trying to make is that YOU are very arrogant toward others that don't agree with you! I was turning everything around yesterday to try to demonstrate what it was like to argue with "Libs". I am putting them in quotes because, I do know that not every "Lib" is exactly the same. MY POINT to you was that YOU TOO fall into the trap of taking a group of people "Evangelical Christians" and YOU admitted that you didn't like them. They scare you. SO is every "Evangelical Christian" the same? That was what I was trying to say yesterday. Then I will admit I had a blast watching you have a "melt dwon". It was quiet fun! LOL!

The "Libs" want to say they are tolerant of all people and then they go, and shall we say, "dislike" a group of people. I was pointing out the hypocrisy!

Larry Elders had a saying on his website. He was reffering to what a law school professor told him, "if you have the law on you side, pound the law, if you have the facts on your side, pound the facts, and if you don't have the law or facts, pound conservatives!" That is what has happened yesterday. I never attacked you personally, YES I have reffered to the typical "Lib, Commie, pinko stuff" but I haven't insulted your intelligence. Now mind you this hasn't been the first, and it probably won't be the last, time I argue with a "lib" but I always find that when they run out of substance they go into personal insults! It happens everytime.

You said,
"Speaking of narrow, shallow and close-minded, are Fox and Rush the only places you get your information? I'm sure you missed the part where I said that I read ALL the newspapers, and watch what goes on on TV, along with reading articles from other newspapers around the world.
So, my views are obviously a little more well-rounded than yours. Of course, EVERY OTHER paper and news show is WRONG because they don't all agree with FOX and Rush...LOL. Speaking of fat men with big mouths who couldn't get a real job if they tried. Anybody could get up and spout off their opinions...that doesn't take much of a brain….and, of course, the more controversial those opinions are, the people you get stirred up, which means more ratings… more money….you get where I’m headed, don’t you?"

SO now you are attacking Rush, BRAVO!
SEE THERE IS MY POINT, IF PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU THEY ARE FAT, STUPID, ETC It is so typical!

You said,

"As for your comment that at least I agree that 93% of the news media says…blah, blah, blah….IF, again you had read the post, you would have read that I didn’t know if that was a fact or where they even got the number, so it wasn’t MY statement in the first place."

" My point to you is that if the WHOLE outside world hates us (your words, not mine) and 93% (IF that’s true) of the media thinks YOU are wrong, couldn’t there be the slightest, teeniest, minutest possibility that if the majority of people think you’re wrong that you just might be????? I’m sure you won’t even consider the possibility, but it’s out there floating around, if you can ever climb out of YOUR little dark box."

I was the one that told you 93% and it came from the PEW report. So do you think that since these people are "Confessed LIibs" that maybe they might slant the news their way?

I live out here in LA. You can't get away from "liberalism" even if you tried. I do read the LA Times, NYT, Truthout,etc. I watch CNN etc. And I listen to FOX and Rush etc. THAT WAS MY POINT! I doubt seriously YOU listen to Rush! Maybe if you did you might be a little more well rounded.

Also the point I was making yeaterday with Michael Moore is you obviously get your "Bush Lied" stuff from Michael Moore, and I should have includud MoveOn.Org becasue that is who is spouting it. You admitted that you didn't even know who Joe Wilson is. Wel,l why is that? If you had listened to ALL news sources than you would have known!

One thing, my husband resents it when you talked about how you "Libs" saved minorities, women etc. He said these are people, not causes. Just something to think about coming from a minority.

See all of that without telling you that you can't read! I was even smiling the whole time! Have a nice day! :)
""Evangelical Christians" and YOU admitted that you didn't like them. They scare you. SO is every "Evangelical Christian" the same?"
I said, "No, because I didn't say "all" Christians. I said "Evalgelistic Christians", and I'm sure not ALL of them.

So, does that answer your question, KS? You can see what I mean when I say that you aren't reading or you're just picking little pieces out of context to make a point.

"The "Libs" want to say they are tolerant of all people and then they go, and shall we say, "dislike" a group of people. I was pointing out the hypocrisy! "

Again...you aren't reading. I said, "So, now, we libs (I've professed many times I am not a lib, but you don't read, or choose to ignore) think the USA is horrible, correct?
You tend to categorize everyone into two small piles...libs and dems. Oh, I forgot about the pinkos, commies, and hippies.
"if you have the law on you side, pound the law, if you have the facts on your side, pound the facts, and if you don't have the law or facts, pound conservatives!" .........or libs! :-)
I'm not pounding conservatives. I'm pounding you for your narrow-minded attitude and your views of everyone who disagrees with you.

"YES I have reffered to the typical "Lib, Commie, pinko stuff" but I haven't insulted your intelligence. Now mind you this hasn't been the first, and it probably won't be the last, time I argue with a "lib" but I always find that when they run out of substance they go into personal insults! It happens everytime."

You don't think that calling people Commies is a personal insult? No, it's only a personal insult if I question YOUR intelligence, but whatever insults you throw out are acceptable.

"SO now you are attacking Rush, BRAVO!
SEE THERE IS MY POINT, IF PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU THEY ARE FAT, STUPID, ETC It is so typical!"
LOL!! You're a piece of work KS. It was YOU who called Michael Moore a fat, stupid..blah, blah, blah. I was using your own words to describle Rush. See, you can dish it out, but you sure can't take it. Speaking of a meltdown! LOL
"One thing, my husband resents it when you talked about how you "Libs" saved minorities, women etc. He said these are people, not causes. Just something to think about coming from a minority."

Again...you aren't paying any attention to what was said in this forum.
I mentioned nothing about LIBS...get that FUCKING word out of your mind, and let's talk about PEOPLE and minorities, like your husband. I was talking to you about the past....something that happened in this country before you were born. I was talking about minorities. Blacks WERE a minority. WOMEN were treated like second class citizens, and could only work at a hand full of jobs. They wore dresses and high heels to clean their houses, ....but what would you know about that? Rush isn't talking about it.

I was telling you that had it not been for my generation...not libs...not me, personally, but PEOPLE from the 60s who fought the ESTABLISHMENT (Republican, Democrat...it didn't make a damn) for equal rights for EVERYBODY!!! We believed that black people (who were called niggers back then) had the right to eat anywhere they wanted, be educated in public schools, and be able to live in better neighborhoods, etc. We believed that women should be allowed to wear pants...to work anywhere they wanted (you weren't allowed to be a policeman, etc.) and to get equal pay for equal work (This is still a problem). I was trying to tell you that you wouldn't have had the opportunities that you do today, had it not been for the fight for your rights that we fought for in the 60s. Ask your grandmother? Ask her what HER opportunities were.
Keep smiling KS. You should. You have so many freedoms and opportunities because we pinko, commie, hippies fought for your rights...oh, and your husband's rights as well.
Peacemaker,

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.

"So, now, we libs (I've professed many times I am not a lib, but you don't read, or choose to ignore).
Why do "libs" hate the term "lib" You should embrace your liberalness! It is who you are, man!

"You’re record is stuck again, KS. You’re so stuck on right and left. Is this a childhood thing? I have already told you, if you had read it, that I am not LEFT. However, you are saying here, that if I don’t agree with your politics that I am not a Christian and not only am I not a Christian, but that I HATE them, as well.
This, of course, is not an insult, is it, KS?
It appears that YOU are the one stuck in a small box.

I NEVER said that you are not a Christian ! I nerver said that you hated them YOU did! I was referring to YOUR opinions of "Evangelical Christians".You still dislike a group of people. You have made comment after comment that has proven your dislike for them.

Just out of curiousity, what do you call yourslef then?

Oh, and to answer your question to prove that I can read, commies, pinkos and hippies are.......... LIBERALS!

LOL!
BTW, KS. Just what did your generation do? How did you put YOUR mark on the world? Don't get cute with me, because I have two daughters who grew up in your generation. It was a nothing generation...generation X. Will you be able to tell your grandchildren what YOUR generation did to help change the world for the better?
Your generation is the most materialistic generation I've ever witnessed. Your kids have more 'toys' than is reasonable, and they grow up totally sheltered from the real world. Of course, you won't know the results of any of this until you're a grandmother, and you can look back and see what mistakes your generation made. We've all made mistakes, and 20/20 hindsight...well, everybody has it. It's easy to see when the results are staring you in the face.

The fact that you are such a spoiled generation is our fault. We wanted our children to have everything. Now, our children want their children to have even more. Kids are stuck on computers and watching TV, and playing violent games on the X boxes, that they don't even realize that when you shoot someone they really die. They can't tell the difference between reality and what they watch on TV. Our children are out there killing each other, and I wonder if that concerns you in the least. Of course, I expect some kind of 'lib' comment, but those of you who DO read my posts, will know I said nothing about libs....only our children and their children. I didn't refer to politics.

My prayer for you KS is that you will be able to have a conversation with your grandchildren...about anything.
"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck."

Not necessarily! It could be you wearing a duck costume.

I nerver said that you hated them YOU did!
Please show me where I said I hated anyone! I don't approve of what certain Evangelist Christians are doing. I am against it. I never used the word 'hate'..you did. So, please show me my comment where I said I hated Christians.

I was referring to YOUR opinions of "Evangelical Christians".You still dislike a group of people. You have made comment after comment that has proven your dislike for them.
You mean the way you've talked about your dislike and disdain for 'libs' or anyone else that doesn't agree with your views?
Just out of curiousity, what do you call yourslef then?
Andy.
Oh, and to answer your question to prove that I can read, commies, pinkos and hippies are.......... LIBERALS!
So, what you're saying then, is that everyone who is not a Republican is a communist?

Naum...I understand from Neocon that you are a liberal. Do you consider yourself to be a hippie? Hippies went out with the 60s (although there are still a few die-hard hippies still lingering about).
Do you consider yourself to be a communist?

If that's not the biggest insult to ANYONE in this country, I don't know what is.
Again, we fought to keep the communists out of this country, but then you weren't even a twinkle in your daddy's eye, so you know nothing about it because you were saved from that fate.
KS before you go spewing ignorant...yes, I said ignorant crap on this site. Learn about what you're saying. YOU are the one who makes yourself sound stupid. It's not me. Learn about communism. Learn about hippies....then we can talk.

I notice you haven't discussed anything about Calley, yet. Is it because you're hoping if you don't comment we'll forget about it? You seem so sure your government would never lie to you, and that nothing is covered up. Do you believe that all of this is a 'lib' conspiracy? Is everything you refuse to see a 'lib' conspiracy?
Peacemaker,

Do you have a mirror LOOk in it!

"I'm not pounding conservatives. I'm pounding you for your narrow-minded attitude and your views of everyone who disagrees with you".

YOU WERE!

What is wrong with being a commie, lib, hippie. if that is what you are? Your views line up with that! I never called you stupid! Comie and hippies are political beliefs. Some people are proud to be these things! So I was complimenting you! :)

"YOU who called Michael Moore a fat, stupid..blah, blah, blah. I was using your own words to describle Rush."

See I NEVER called Michael Moore that, that is the TIltle of his book! IF you scroll up, I think if was Friday I was Telling you to read it. I am sure you already knew though, being you are so well rounded! LOL!

Come on Peacemaker, you have to see that his comment is condescending,
"Again...you aren't paying any attention to what was said in this forum.
"I mentioned nothing about LIBS...get that FUCKING word out of your mind, and let's talk about PEOPLE and minorities, like your husband. I was talking to you about the past....something that happened in this country before you were born. I was talking about minorities. Blacks WERE a minority. WOMEN were treated like second class citizens, and could only work at a hand full of jobs. They wore dresses and high heels to clean their houses, ....but what would you know about that? Rush isn't talking about it."

I never had a meltdown I was laughing yesterday because you were loosing it!

"Keep smiling KS. You should. You have so many freedoms and opportunities because we pinko, commie, hippies fought for your rights...oh, and your husband's rights!"

I am glad to see you are starting to embrace yourself and what you are! Good for you! :)
LOL! I purposely went to get the dictionary's version of conservative and liberal.
Here is how the dictionary describes a conservative:

Conformist
Unadventerous
Old-fashioned
Old-school

Liberal:

Open-minded
Free thinking
Generous
Tolerant

It shows the opposite as being narrow-minded.

So, proud to be a conservative, are you?
I wouldn't brag about it.
You know, I could be wrong. I know that in my grandfather's generation, the word "jazz" meant to F---. In my generation it meant 'stuff', so when I would say, in front of my grandfather, "And all that jazz", my grandfather thought I was talking about F---ing. When we used the word 'screw' to refer to messsing something up, our parents also thought we were talking about F---ing. My kids (your generation) talked about something being 'bad'. That meant it was good.

So, maybe your generation has a different meaning for "commie". If so, I admit I was mistaken. However, if you mean Communist, as I assumed you did, then NO, I don't think anyone would be proud to call themselves that. It's an insult, and I don't like it. I may have referred to your lack of ability to stretch your narrow-mind (which you agree you have since that is included in the definition of a conservative), but I have never called you a 'name'.
So, enlighten me, just what is your definition of a 'commie'?
As for Hippies, I was never one. I rather envied their lifestyle sometimes. It was a laid-back, make love not war group who passed out flowers and smoked some weed. Is that really bad? They were, as were most of us, against the stereotypical view of the world that our parents had for us. We didn't believe things were right, so we fought to change them. Some in one way, some in others. It was a generation of freedom from the 'establishment' as we referred to it.
We were against the way the 'establishment' treated people who weren't WASPS. Most of the hippies that you refer to are George Bushes today. They grew up and joined the establishment...I mean what else were they going to do? They couldn't lay around all their lives passing out flowers and smoking weed, right? I believe, if you read stories about Bush as a youngster, you'll find he WAS sort of a hippie. Nothing wrong with that. He grew up and changed because he had to, I guess. It's hard to make a living passing out flowers and chanting "Make love not war"!
Women were burning their bras, etc. I saw a show on TV not long ago about the 60s, and some woman on there said "They burned their bras because they hurt". I had to laugh at that ridiculous statement. I'm sure that's what she believed, but women burned their bras as a statement of freedom. If men could go topless, why couldn't women?? I'm sure they ARE uncomfortable, and I've always enjoyed taking them off. :-)
"If that's not the biggest insult to ANYONE in this country, I don't know what is.
Again, we fought to keep the communists out of this country, but then you weren't even a twinkle in your daddy's eye, so you know nothing about it because you were saved from that fate.
KS before you go spewing ignorant...yes, I said ignorant crap on this site. Learn about what you're saying. YOU are the one who makes yourself sound stupid. It's not me. Learn about communism. Learn about hippies....then we can talk. "

Peacemaker, YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE STUPID, IGNORANT IF THEY DON"T AGREE WITH YOU! JUST MORE PROOF! HA!

I don't hate people at all. Conservatives and yes even "Evangelical Christains" don't hate people because that don't agree with them! I was trying to point out that a lot of "libs" I have come across do feel that way. Conservatives tend to be more optimistic! I have observed that while some"libs" go around and bash America, conservatives realize that we are not perfect but not horrible either.

"KS before you go spewing ignorant...yes, I said ignorant crap on this site. Learn about what you're saying. YOU are the one who makes yourself sound stupid. It's not me. Learn about communism. Learn about hippies....then we can talk."

At least you admit to calling me ignorant and stupid. We are making progress. :)

"BTW, KS. Just what did your generation do? How did you put YOUR mark on the world? Don't get cute with me, because I have two daughters who grew up in your generation. It was a nothing generation...generation X. Will you be able to tell your grandchildren what YOUR generation did to help change the world for the better?

Now who is making generalizations?


" The fact that you are such a spoiled generation is our fault. We wanted our children to have everything. Now, our children want their children to have even more. Kids are stuck on computers and watching TV, and playing violent games on the X boxes, that they don't even realize that when you shoot someone they really die. They can't tell the difference between reality and what they watch on TV. Our children are out there killing each other, and I wonder if that concerns you in the least. Of course, I expect some kind of 'lib' comment, but those of you who DO read my posts, will know I said nothing about libs....only our children and their children. I didn't refer to politics."

I do agree with some of this statement though. I agree that their is a problem that needs to be fixed. My thought on it is that it comes from the "if it feels good do it" attitude of your generation. I also think most of this generation could do with a good whack to the head, or at least a very real threat of it. NO I know teachers can't, but maybe some parents should do something, anything to discipline their children! It's like they are afraid to say "No!"
As far as the Calley goes, it was wrong and the Army should have done something about it. The "Government" didn't cover it up though, the hierarchy of the Americal division did. A soldier who heard about it through the grapevine pushed a Congressman into taking action. So our government did do something about it. From what I have read most of what I have read Calley should have never been made an Officer and most of Charlie Company shouldn't have seen combat. I don't think that they should have been made to be "victims" by the civilian press. They should have hanged for their crimes. I hardly would say that things like the massacre at My Lai were commonplace.

In his book "Flashbacks" Morley Safer said "My mind drifts to a dozen acts of supreme courage that I had wintessed in Vietnam, of tenderness shown by fearsom-looking men to village children whose older brothers had planted mines and booby traps. I remember one black sergat, and enormous man, who had himself been raised in the most appalling conditions in Chicago, dancing across a dike during a mortar attack and pulling two children to safety."

Hugh Thompson has been quoted as saying " People say [My Lai-type incidents] happened all the in Vietnam, I don't believe it."

Pulitzer Prize winning jounalist David Halberstram who covered the war for The New York Times has said "For every Calley, there were a large numbers of young American officers who were brave and selfless and treated their men and the enemy with respect"

War Correspondant Peter Arnett has stated that in all the units he accompanied, he never saw anyone kill a civilian or assault a child. " They didn't even think about it. Every unit I was with, the GIs went out of their way to be kind and decent with the people."

The problem is the picture that is painted is that we are a nation of "Calleys" when in fact we are not. Most of us are caring people who would never commit murder in millitary or civilian life. They also tend to not even make mention of things like the tragedy that happened 6 months prior to My Lai, when the North Vietnamese Captured Hue City during the Tet Offensive. They held the city for five weeks and cold bloodedly executed 3,500 to 5,000 South Vietnamese School Teachers, Civic leaders, Doctors and other "enemies of the people". Where is the outrage about that? I guess it shouldn't be mentioned because it doesn't make the US look bad.
Peacemaker,

Then why aren't you proud to ba a liberal? I think the definition is how "libs" think of themselves, but I have proven that wrong!

A lot of "libs" like Hillary and even Kerry views are very similar to the Communist Manifesto. Remember a week or so ago Hillary said, "You must give back your tax cuts for the common good". And if you think back to the Hippie times of the 60's didn't the Hippies go around reading the Communist Manifesto? That was a popular book wasn't it? I have had college professors say they were a Communist. They were even proud! I think there is a lot of Socialist/Communists in this country with the same philosophy anyways.

Bush wasn't what I would say is a "Hippie"
You are right, todays conservatives are different from the dictionary. According to the left we are racist, sexsist, homophobic people. Most conservatives in the mainstream want ALL people to work hard and succeed. Liberals (not all) tend to want people to rely on the governmnet to help. Which do you think is more like the communist philoshy?
philosophy
Peacemaker said: "As for Hippies, I was never one. I rather envied their lifestyle sometimes. It was a laid-back, make love not war group who passed out flowers and smoked some weed. Is that really bad? They were, as were most of us, against the stereotypical view of the world that our parents had for us. We didn't believe things were right, so we fought to change them. Some in one way, some in others. It was a generation of freedom from the 'establishment' as we referred to it....... "

Those hippies and their crazy world views have blemished the social fabric in this country:

schools and homes are in shambles, because they're "afraid" to treat kids like kids. Why are kids so fat today? Yes, hippies and their brethren liberal soccer moms. Billions of dollars are thrown at public schools, and yet, kids aren't any smarter. Why? Because the hippies are trying to teach love, community brotherhood and "It Takes a Village"crap instead of the 3 R's.

Look at the former hippies today: Bush has freed a country and is pushing for elections in 6 months; he's invested millions in programs to provide equality to women in afghanistan and Iraq; he's promised billions for the fight on AIDS; he's stood proud as the 9/11 Commission trashed him, without calling for their heads; his tax cuts are providing stimulus to an economy, and has even proposed a controversial bill for immigration reform in this country.

Despite all this, the "peace Generation" compares Bush to Hitler(and you as well, friend). He is blamed for 9/11; called a murderer of innocents by hippie wannabees around the world, in Hollywood and on "documentaries". In other words, they don't care for anything, but what's theirs.

I forgot abortion (that hateful topic). So many lives wasted for a career, laziness, and shits and grins. Even Ms Roe has regretted what she did, because now abortion is little more than birth control.
According to statistics from a religious black organization (will provide link tomorrow), 13 million potential black citizens are in the ground. More blacks abort their babies than any other racial group. Oddly enough, the NAACP refuses to address the issue and supports the right to choose. One would think they would at least attempt to do something. However, it seems the hippie generation of activists has siezed control of the NAACP, as is obvious by their recent actions.

Then there is the current international laws regarding pesticides and genetic crops. The result of the unforgiving bans on some insecticides (DDT-read Michael Crichtons speech on this subject)has resulted in third world countries sinking deeper in poverty and suffering; malaria is a leading killer; hundreds of thousands are killed each year thanks to hippies and their environmental freak friends. And for those farmers who want to have successful harvests free from infestations, well, tough shit. Not if the hippy lefties have their way. Better people should die than greedy corps get stronger.

I wouldn't take such pride in that era, Peacemaker. Their ideals and ideas for Utopia were echoed earlier in the Soviet Union: many dead for nothing. Their ideals are killing so many thousands today.
To steal a line from Kerry: "They died for the biggest nothing in history"(Marxism, Communism).

I saw you took responsibility Peacemaker (your generation that is) for today's generation. I think in a way you're right. What I can't fathom is why the Hippie generation arose from the giant shoulders of the "Greatest Generation". I don't get it.
By the way, though, it's our generation right now in Afghanistan, Iraq. Ours will be the one to create something wonderful from a fiery mess. We may very well make the world safer than when Reagan was in charge.

Did I get the translation for OMFG wrong? Sorry if I did.
Neocon,

Amen! I couldn't agree more!


As for the translation for OMFG, you were exactly right, Peacmaker just "judged" us on it. Even though we were just quoting from that site! "OMFG, Its the same chair!"
LOL! I still am laughing over that!
I sat here and responded to Kerrysucks, and it was, believe it or not, a very nice reply. However, when I sent it, it has too many words, and everything I said was erased. I'm too tired to begin again, tonight. Maybe tomorrow, I'll address the issues she brought up...which were good ones.

I do want to say to Neocon, that you are partly right about the 'hippies'. But only partly. I'll address one question you asked tonight, then I'll get back to this tomorrow. It's been a long day.
You asked why our generation was created by the "greatest generation"? Well, I'm here to answer your question. First of all, it's a matter of opinion that it was the "greatest generation". I guess it depends on who you were. If you were a black person or a woman it wasn't so hot. However, when the men came back from the war (war always improves economy), they were lauded as great heros. So, jobs were easily attained by them, and prices were reasonable if not down right cheap. So, they rushed home to have babies. I'm one of 'em. I was born in 1946. I think I'm the first thing my daddy did when he came home to his wife. Life was good. People could easily buy nice upper middle class homes, and new cars, and nice things. THEY, like me, like you, all wanted their children to have better than they did. Don't even think that we weren't punished. By punished we were whipped with belts, willow switches, hands, etc. We were denied privileges, and then some. We were taught morals, values, respect for elders, and more.
The 50s was probably the best time for a kid to grow up. It wasn't so hot for other people, but if you were a white kid from the middle-to upper class, you had a great childhood. We were spoiled rotten. We did have to work for what we got, and if we broke the neighbors window with a baseball, we had to work it off. Kids today don't respect each other, much less authority or their elders. I don't know. I didn't raise MY kids like that. They do respect themselves and others. A whole generation isn't one thing or another. Some people from every generation are lazy do nothings, and some work very hard.

I don't know any hippies. Like I said before, all the hippies, except Charlie and the gang, grew up and became part of what they were rebelling against. When my father was a teenager, his generation piled themselves into phone booths, wore straw hats, and swallowed live goldfish. He grew up, and he doesn't do that any more, so to say that the GREAT GENERATION is a bunch of goldfish swallowers, is kinds silly. Hippies were just a bunch of kids preaching peace and love. If you have a problem with peace and love, I'm sorry for you...and even sorrier for your wife. That doesn't mean that when they grew up, they all became lazy good for nothing men and women who planned to live their lives on welfare. Most of us have gotten educations and have worked to raise our own families, and do the best we could with what we had....just like our parents and their parents before.

I'm sorry that you think our generation was the worst generation, but I can tell you one thing. When we were your age, we thought we were going to change the world, and make it all right again. We KNEW we were going to do a better job than our parents. We grew up. You're not going to change the world and make it all right again. I hate to burst your bubble, but all you're going to do is try to live a decent life, raise a family, and hang in there til you die. Hopefully, you'll get to see your kids grow up and see your grandchildren through their young years, and then you're on borrowed time. Guess we're all on borrowed time, now...even you.
It's nice to see that young people are so idealistic. It's a good thing. It just doesn't last that long. After you've experienced some more life, that sparkle leaves your eyes, and you become a bit more jaded. Am tired and probably running out of room again. I'll come back tomorrow. I know you can't wait!
WOW! Peacemaker thank you! :)
Peacemaker: "I'm sorry that you think our generation was the worst generation, but I can tell you one thing. When we were your age, we thought we were going to change the world, and make it all right again. We KNEW we were going to do a better job than our parents. We grew up. You're not going to change the world and make it all right again. I hate to burst your bubble, but all you're going to do is try to live a decent life, raise a family, and hang in there til you die. Hopefully, you'll get to see your kids grow up and see your grandchildren through their young years, and then you're on borrowed time. Guess we're all on borrowed time, now...even you.
It's nice to see that young people are so idealistic. It's a good thing. It just doesn't last that long. After you've experienced some more life, that sparkle leaves your eyes, and you become a bit more jaded."

I don't expect to change the world. Simply noted that we're not do-nothings as your earlier post suggested. I'm also not against Peace and Love. However, I could never have idealized like hippies. I now know (and have known for years) through history, that there can be no Peace without War. That is a fact the hippie generation shunned. I don't know about you, but think about it. Just listen to A.N.S.W.E.R. and other groups who really believe we can change the Saddams, Osama, Castro,Milosevic'sand Khomeini's through a song and reaching out. It don't work that way.
There will always have to be a big man on the block tokeep the peace. ALWAYS. That is, until mostof the world is democratic. The UN is SUPPOSEDto be that Big Man, but we now know, in the words of the venerable Arnold:" The UN are a bunch of GIRLIE-MEN"
"I'm sorry that you think our generation was the worst generation, but I can tell you one thing."
Whoa! Did I say that? I'm talking the hippie freaks. Several of my brothers are babyboomers. You guys have done a fine job. It's the hippie freaks who are screwing it up for us. Now they're congressmen, psychologists, teachers and God forbid, lawyers (please don't take this wrong Peacemaker; you're an exception I'm sure).

"By punished we were whipped with belts, willow switches, hands, etc. We were denied privileges, and then some. We were taught morals, values, respect for elders, and more. " What does that mean? Were you abused, or something? My fatheralso punished, but hetaught us to fear the deed, which made us great kids. I don't get it.

I know what you meanafter you've written a shitload; suddenly a little bump on the screen and you've lost it all. Whata pisser!
Neocon,

Did you hear today that Iran might be involved in terrorism?? GASP! (sarcastic)

GIRLIE-MEN! LOL! The Dems out here are having a spasmatic attack because he called them that because they won't vote in out budget! they said it offended women and gays! Can't the left take a joke for corn sake!?
I love it! Whoopi can say what she wants, Arnold can't!
I heard Laura interview a reporter on the Iran news. What will the libs say now? Bush was right to put Iran in the Axis of Evil; of course, they all wigged out! Now, the Dems want UNILATERAL action on North Korea!! What will they say of Iran?
But hold on! That's all US Propaganda! The European sources point out that Iranians are skipping and a playing; swimming in happiness and joy. Just like the Iraqis in 1990, before we came in and screwed it up! (Michael Moore fantasyland)

It's the US that are fascists,led by the Hitler Bush and his Gestapo! AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!! If only we lose the war, oust the dictator and vote in a LOVER of uhhhhh....Peace. Then we can all relax and ignore the mass murders. (I wonder if the anti-war freaks andtheanti-Bush people want to go into Sudan to stop that slaughter. Technically, we should let "nature takes its course")
Everyday, Kerrysucks, I'm more confident that Bush will win handily. Kerry's a BUFFOON and Edwards is just another schmuck with a cute face. Two Americas, my ass!
On November 3, we'll all laugh our asses off at the liberals who spent the last year telling lies..lies..lies to throw him out of office.

Proud to be RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RIGHT ON!!!! I think their "Case against Bush" is starting to unravel! Did you see the front of the Drudge report? You know how they always say Bush is always on vacation? Well,the Ap has reported that Kerry has missed 80% of his votes in the senate! Then Drudge has about ten pictures of Kerry snowboarding, playing hockey, swimming, etc. LOL!

The "Left" really does look quite foolish! I love how they are all ready to "go after" Korea. What happend to "Make love not war?"I personally think we should all hold hands and sing "Michael Row Your Boat Ashore" with the Koreans and the Iranians, that'll teach em! I think Bush is going to win too! God I hope so, can you imagine Kerry as President? Now that is scary!
Again, I'm in a hurry to get off here. Am just extremely busy at the moment, but just wanted to quickly comment on two things you said, then I'll get back when I have some time.

"that there can be no Peace without War."

This is a fairly true statement, but the truth is that as long as their are two people on earth, there will be no peace on earth!!

Second thing:

"It's the hippie freaks who are screwing it up for us. Now they're congressmen, psychologists, teachers and God forbid, lawyers (please don't take this wrong Peacemaker; you're an exception I'm sure)."

Thanks....since I was never I hippie. While the hippies were at Haight-Ashbury, I was getting myself shot, and then I got married, worked and raised a family. I didn't find time to hand out flowers and preach about peace and love. I'm a school psychologist, and KS should know what that means. I (in spite of many parents) spend my days trying to get children whatever help they need, whether it's testing them for placement or assisting the teacher with behavior modifications or strategies to help the child learn. I'm not one of those "Gee, you're parents treated you like shit, so I understand why you rape and murder" kind of psychologists.
BTW, fearing the deed, and being corporally punished didn't make ME into a serial killer or anyone else I know. I'm sorry, I know this is politically incorrect (I love being politically incorrect), but I don't think it would hurt a kid to get whacked every now and then. I don't believe it teaches violence. I'm not violent, and most of my generation or my parents generation isn't violent, either. People don't become violent because their parents or teachers gave 'em a whack when needed.
"BTW, fearing the deed, and being corporally punished didn't make ME into a serial killer or anyone else I know. I'm sorry, I know this is politically incorrect (I love being politically incorrect), but I don't think it would hurt a kid to get whacked every now and then. I don't believe it teaches violence. I'm not violent, and most of my generation or my parents generation isn't violent, either. People don't become violent because their parents or teachers gave 'em a whack when needed. "

AGREE!, I'll even give you an AMEN! :)
Ditto!!!! Well, hell....we agreed on something, Peacemaker. What is there to gripe about now!
Some quotes from Iraq regarding the illegal, inhumane war on innocents from Hitler Bush and the terrorist Americans:
Omar at Iraq the Model: http://iraqthemodel.blogspo...

"You cannot tell a man that saving him and his family from torture, humiliation and death was a mistake and it should’ve not been done because it’s illegal. This is almost an insult to Iraqis to hear someone saying that this war was illegal. It means that our suffering for decades meant nothing and that formalities and the stupid rules of the UN (that rarely function) are more important than the lives of 25 million people."

And here are some extracts, translated by Omar, from comments posted at the BBC's Arabic forum:

"The soldiers who died in Iraq gave their lives as tributes for freedom. Thanks to all the soldiers who risked and lost their lives for the sake of others’ freedom."
Mohammed Abdul Jabbar, Baghdad

"All the debates and the investigations in these two countries are motivated by political ambitions and jealousy rather than the protection of the country and constitution. Bush and Blair deserve a Noble Prize for peace."
Abdulrahman Al-Alwani, Syria

"Saddam had the money, the scientists and the programs and if he had remained in power he would’ve continued producing WMDs. A world without Saddam in power is safer."
Abu Mohammed Al-Shammary, Denmark

"If the British and American Intelligence have made a mistake and this mistake lead to the decision of the war on Saddam and liberation of Iraq from the hands of what was probably the worst tyranny ever, then what a wonderful mistake!"
Fakherlddine Sharif, Iraq

These quotes were posted on FrontPageMag.com,
Monday, July 19, 2004
By the way, Kerrysucks: here is a good link to a European blogger. He's a conservative living in London and provides good sound commentary to counter the other crap. Worth looking into once in awhile. He really takes Josh Marshall of Talking POints Memo for dragging his feet on not admitting Joe Wilson lied (apparently, TPM is popular among liberal bloggers). Anyway, check it out.

http://www.belgraviadispatc...
"The media is losing credibility among audience and this is happening so fast and it is a huge mistake.
 I want to say to the media: by continuing like this you’re taking the dictators and terrorists’ side and you’re feeding their arrogance when you say "We were wrong when we went to Iraq" or "Iraq was better off before the war and Iraqis and the world are suffering because of the war" and you’re using the failure to find the Iraqi WMDs and the casualties among Iraqi civilians as a weapon in this media war."

Further down in your first link I read this! I love it!

"The military component of the war on terrorism has had some significant success. A high proportion of those who associated with bin Laden between 1996 and 2001 are now either dead or in prison. Bin Laden's own ability to commission and instigate terror attacks has been severely curtailed. Enhanced cooperation between intelligence organizations around the world and increased security budgets have made it much harder for terrorists to move their funds across borders or to successfully organize and execute attacks."

If you read the 9/11 commission report section fifteen, it is quite similar to this and they even included a letter from Zarqwui (SP) writing to UBL saying he is starting to feel choked out!

It feels good that their lies are being exposed! It appears that not only Michael Moore's ass keeps getting bigger but now his nose is getting longer ae well! (just a joke) LOL!
Great sites Neocon!

Thanks!
Neocon,

Here's a site for you!
http://www.newsmax.com/arch...

Now we know why there are insurgents in Iraq!
"By punished we were whipped with belts, willow switches, hands, etc. We were denied privileges, and then some. We were taught morals, values, respect for elders, and more. "
What does that mean? Were you abused, or something? My fatheralso punished, but hetaught us to fear the deed, which made us great kids. I don't get it."

No. That's my point. I was NOT abused, but punished. Today, if a parent/teacher physically punishes a child, it's called abuse. I was just punished. My father was whipped. I believe he referred to it as "going out to the woodshed". I remember smacking my daughters on the butt when they were wearing diapers so thick they couldn't have felt a thing...but the idea of being smacked made the cry before I'd even done it.

People don't become violent because their parents or teachers gave 'em a whack when needed. "

"AGREE!, I'll even give you an AMEN! :) "

One of the reasons that I've not been able to post as much, lately, is because I fell out of my chair after reading Kerrysucks's comment, and seriously injured myself. :-)
Kerrysucks: That link says all that I've come to believe about the U.N., or should I say, the League of Nations.
The utter incompetance of this organization just doesn't cease to amaze me. Currently, they're busy telling Israel that they can't build a goddamn wall (afterall, Palestinian Murderers must have easy passage. Duh!).
In Rwanda, they're convicting the DJ's who spread the hate and encouraged the murder of hundreds of thousands. Now, I can't complain about that, but of course, they're (the UN) blameless for not doing a goddamn thing to help those poor people. Meanwhile, they're debating the meaning of genocide. In other words, the organization can only mop up a slaughter, not actually flex to preventone. How pathetic!

Speaking of the Rwanda trials Kerrysucks and Peacemaker:
I don't know if you heard libs challenging Bush for shutting down that Iraqi paper (can't remember the name) some months ago (you know the typical rubbage: censoring free speech and all)(apparently, it's opened up again).
Anyhow, I don't recall any libs griping to the UN for convicting these hateful, violent DJ's who used the airwaves to spread the rhetoric and lies,as well as telling people how to kill, what to use, etc. Wouldn't that qualify as free speech under the limitless definition of protected speech?
Another example of hypocrisy by the libs on Free Speech. Just listen to Elton John (great singer, crazy lib). Why would he actually understand?
From National Review's Rich Lowry on why President Bush just can't win...even if he does

Sometimes a political figure becomes so hated that he can't do anything right in the eyes of his enemies. President Bush has achieved this rare and exalted status. His critics are so blinded by animus that the internal consistency of their attacks on him no longer matters. For them, Bush is the double-bind president.

If he stumbles over his words, he is an embarrassing idiot. If he manages to cut taxes or wage a war against Saddam Hussein with bipartisan support, he is a manipulative genius.

If he hasn't been able to capture Osama bin Laden, he is endangering U.S. security. If he catches bin Laden, it is only a ploy to influence the elections.

If he ignores U.N. resolutions, he is a dangerous unilateralist. If he takes U.N. resolutions on Iraq seriously, he is a dangerous unilateralist. If he doesn't get France to agree to his Iraq policy, he is ignoring important international actors. If he supports multiparty talks on North Korea, he is not doing enough to ignore important international actors.

If he bombed Iraq, he should have bombed Saudi Arabia instead, and if he had bombed Saudi Arabia, he should have bombed Iran, and if he had bombed all three, he shouldn't have bombed anyone at all. If he imposes a U.S. occupation on Iraq, he is fomenting Iraqi resistance by making the United States seem an imperial power. If he ends the U.S. occupation, he is cutting and running.

If he warns of a terror attack, he is playing alarmist politics. If he doesn't warn of a terror attack, he is dangerously asleep at the switch. If he says we're safer, he's lying, and if he doesn't say we're safer, he's implicitly admitting that he has failed in his core duty as commander in chief.

If he adopts a doctrine of preemption, he is unacceptably remaking American national-security policy. If the United States suffers a terror attack on his watch, he should have preempted it. If he signs a far-reaching antiterror law, he is abridging civil liberties. If the United States suffers another terror attack on his watch, he should have had a more vigorous anti-terror law.

Bush's economy hasn't created new jobs. If it has created new jobs, they aren't well-paying jobs. If they are well-paying jobs, there is still income inequality in America.

If Bush opposes a prescription-drug benefit for the elderly, he's miserly. If he supports a prescription-drug benefit for the elderly, he's lining the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies. If he restrains government spending, he's heartless. If he supports government spending, he's bankrupting the nation and robbing from future generations.

If he opposes campaign-finance reform, he's a tool of corporate interests. If he signs campaign-finance reform, he's abridging the First Amendment rights of Michael Moore (whose ads for Fahrenheit 9/11 might run afoul of the law).

If he accuses John Kerry of flip-flopping, he is merely highlighting one of the Massachusetts senator's strengths — his nuance and thoughtfulness. If he flip-flops on nation-building or testifying before the 9/11 commission, he proves his own ill-intentions, cluelessness, or both.

If he doesn't admit a mistake, he is bullheaded and detached from reality. If he admits a mistake, he is damning his own governance in shocking fashion.

If he sticks with Dick Cheney, he is saddling himself with an unpopular vice president, giving Democrats who can't wait to run against Cheney a political advantage. If he drops Cheney, he is admitting that the Democratic attacks against his vice president have hit home, thus giving Democrats who have made those charges a political advantage.

If he loses in November, the voice of the American people has spoken a devastating verdict on his presidency. If he wins, he stole the election.
Neocon,

YES! The UN is pathetic! Their only function is to hand out empty threats and sanctions! That is another reason we had to go to war with Iraq. THe UN voted for resoulution 1441, and Bush tried to make them, for ONCE, stick to the deadline, instead of letting Saddam get away with playing his little game! Bush means what he says! That's why Libya got rid of their weapons! If it was up to the UN nothing would get accomplished! They are really a useless bunch of idiots

"From National Review's Rich Lowry on why President Bush just can't win...even if he does "


I just listend to that on Rush! I have been saying that for months! Is Bush and evil genius or and idiot? Which is it?

Did you hear about Sandy Berger? Well, well, well.......
UNBELIEVEABLE! They obstructed justice! Stealing documents to make the Clinton admin look good! What a bunch of ((*&&**((((()(&%$! The "HandBERGlur"

I am now convinced that some people on the left don't even know what free speech is! I guess it means if you agree with us you can say anything, but if you don't agree with us then you are censuring us! We have every right to call Bush Hitler, compare him to a woman's privates etc. (even though the consequences come from the private sector not the government) but if Arnold says. "Girley-man" or if Rush is going to be on Military Radio, they we want heads to roll! HYPOCRITES!
Let's get this straight: Berger goes into an archival room with high importance papers. Anyone with a brain knows you can't take in anything but a pencil; notes were permitted, but couldn't leave the room.

Bear with me now......he takes his notes and stuffs them in his pants. He also takes original documents, under the urrr.....assumption they were copies. Let me rephrase...he "inadvertently" stuffed the shit down his pants(need a Clinton definition for inadvertent).
He "promptly" returns documents after the FBI knocks on his door: his escuse- "sloppy behavior". But alas, some of the original documents were urrr....misplaced. Imagine that....naturally, because he's a Democrat, he'll get a slap on the wrist and a finger wagging.

I ask anyone, including our Euro cousin..."WHERE IS THE RAGE AND WHERE IS THE COVERAGE!!!!!!!"

We all know DAMN well that had Condi, Powell, or any Bush Admin personnel done this, Bush would be in a noose and Katie would be interviewing every goddamn Dem on the 9/11 Commission to talk of the "consequences".

Conservatives have had to put up with the bullshit of the 9/11 Commission already(partisan hacks); and now THIS! Whoa! What was there to steal and "misplace" that Richard Clarke didn't already say in his book of "truth". What was there to hide from the public testimony....wait, I mean PRIVATE testimony of Bill Clinton and Sandy Berger? (do you all remember how Bush got a load of partisan shit for testifying privately with Cheney?-more partisan bullshit from the media).

Conservatives have to put up with every form of hypocritic behavior from the left, but as Lowry said, we can never win. To the left, it's inadverten, or a mistake, or (sob) sloppy behavior.
This is one reason of many, Peacemaker, that I'm a conservative neocon. Much less hypocrisy on our side. And no goddamn excuses either!!!
For Peacemaker: some news about a LOSER in my generation. I got this blurb from http:\\noleftturns.ashbrook.org

"Project 21,a network of conservative African-Americans, is rightly outraged by comic-strip cartoonist, Ted Rall, and his July 1st comic: "Appropriate Punishments for Deposed Bushites." Rall’s parody features Condoleezza Rice saying "I was Bush’s beard! His house nigga. His..." She is interrupted by a character wearing a shirt reading "You’re not white, stupid" who says, "Now hand over your hair straightener."

From the Project 21 press release:
"Is it OK for Ted Rall to use such vile language because he’s using it against a black conservative?" asks Project 21 member Michael King. "I’m beside myself with anger over this comic."
Project 21 is asking Universal Press Syndicate, the distributor of Rall’s comics, to immediately terminate their relationship with him. Project 21 is also asking the NAACP, the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) and the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition to make similar demands based on their past involvement in pressuring ESPN to fire radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh in 2003.

Perhaps just as disturbing as Rall’s "comedy," is the marketing caption describing the cartoonist: "Ted Rall writes for a generation unjustly maligned as a pack of lazy slackers. He voices Generation X’s frustration and resentment at the excesses of the baby boomers who’ve left a spent America in their mammoth wake. Ted’s irreverent attitude and deft use of satire combine to make his work as fun to read as it is thought-provoking. And Ted’s ability to connect with current culture gives his writing an of-the-moment perspective that is edgy and sharp."

He's a pathetic example of the angry new generation that can do nothing but bitch about the babyboomers. Let me say again, that I'm quite happy with the babyboomers (it's the hippies I had a problem with).
To view the comic, go to: http://www.ucomics.com/tedr...
Neocon,

YOU KNOW IT! Did you hear what Daschel said today? HE IS QUESTIONING THE TIMEING OF THE STORY!??????? GOOD GOLLY MISS MOLLY! So forget that they tried to obstruct justice, we are going to focus on the evil dictator Bush, who is just releasing this to get the attetnion onto the democrats. WHHHHATTTTT??!!!!! Is that the craziest shit you ever heard?

Of course there is no coverage because the Pro-Kerry (Newsweek even admitted they could get Kerry 15 points in the polls) media is to busy trying to get Kerry elected ! If ANY conservative did this they would be hanged! Katie Couric would probably have an orgasm right there on the Today show!

THE HYPOCRISY IS UNBELIEVEABLE!
This is the stuff that minorities have to deal with all of the time. This is the stuff you don't hear about. It's not okay to call somebody a "N word Spic, Beaner, etc". But it's perfectly okay to call them an Uncle Tom, Oreo Cookie, Coconut, sell out- as long as they are conservative. These "open minded" people are generally the biggest hypocrites of them all. They love to sit around talking about what they did in the 60's, for "the rights of those poor minorites", yet they don't want them in thier neighborhoods. The old "It's all good as long as they don't move in next to me" is alive and well in the enlightened suburbs of America. I couldn't even tell you how many times I've seen these open minded enlightened people go through the roof when thier daughter comes home with a black boy friend or better yet gets pregnant by one. But hey, as long as you can sit around drinking wine with your other enlightened friends patting yourselves on the backs because of all the great things you've done for "those people", I guess it's okay to call somebody and "Uncle Tom or a House Nigger."
"This is an election year, and I think we're in desperate trouble and it's time for people to speak up and not pipe down. It's a real conflict for me when I go to a concert and find out somebody in the audience is a Republican or fundamental Christian. It can cloud my enjoyment. I'd rather not know."

This is a quote for Linda Rondstat for the San Diego Union Tibune. Sounds like hate against Republicans and Fundamental Christians to me.

What if in the above sentence we replaced the word fundamental Christian or Republican with "black or N word, Jew" or any of the other racist terms?
"Project 21 is also asking the NAACP, the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) and the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition to make similar demands based on their past involvement in pressuring ESPN to fire radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh in 2003."

Is this a typo, or is this old news? 2003 was last year.

"They love to sit around talking about what they did in the 60's, for "the rights of those poor minorites", yet they don't want them in thier neighborhoods. The old "It's all good as long as they don't move in next to me" is alive and well in the enlightened suburbs of America."
You know, I'm not sure where you live, but life isn't like that anywhere I've lived, and I've lived in a few states in the past 15 years. My neighbors (across the street) are a black/white couple with two black sons. The rest of the hood is white, but we all like them...their just neighbors...we don't look at them as anything else. They're lovely people with two good kids, and we judge them (if we judge them) by what kind of people they are, not what color they happen to be. My youngest daughter dated some black guys when she was in high school. That didn't bother me. They were nice young boys. She ended up marrying a white guy, but it wouldn't have mattered to me what color he was. I'd rather she marry a black guy that loved her than a white guy that beat her up. Life just isn't like you describe, where I live....and thank God! We work together, (by we I mean Asians, blacks, gays, Hispanics, etc.) and we just don't look at color or race. I'm sure there are a select few in town who feel superior, but then they feel superior toward people who aren't exactly like them. That's a problem THEY have. It's not ours.

I think I resent the use of the word "they". I never did know who they were. "They say you shouldn't do this"...."they believe that blah, blah, blah", "Well, you know what they say"! Who the Hell are THEY???
As always, one more thing... :-)
Polls....I just love polls. For example: 45% of the people polled say Bush is ahead". "76% of the polls agree that marijuana should be legalized." Have you ever been polled? I've never been polled in my nearly 58 years. I know no one who has ever been polled. Nobody's ask anybody I've ever known, so who the hell are these people who are polled? Survey's show..... have you ever been surveyed? Nope, neither have I. LOL
But 99% of the people surveyed say they believe that Lincoln was stabbed and not shot in the head, and that he was really eating dinner at the local restaurant and was not watching a play.
POLLS?? Who are they? Where are they? Are they the same 'they' that I referred to in my previous post? I'd just like to meet them before I meet my maker.
Not a typo, Peacemaker. I'm sure you remember all the hoopla last year regarding Rush and his comments on ESPN. The NAACP and other groups threatened ESPN with boycotts,lawsuits and even John Edwards (joke) if they didn't can Rush. Rush noby stepped down, to prevent undue embarrassment to the sports station. The point of the mention in the article is to say, you screamed, moaned and bitched about one person saying very tame comments (media sympathy towards black athletes), so you'd better scream, bitch and moan to this nimrod for calling a successful black american a nigga of the white man.
However, because the NAACP is effectively a lobby of the Democratic party, they'll excuse any insults to Black conservatives, and excuse insults voiced by liberals (Chris Dodd, Jesse jackson, et al.).
I know who THEY are, but you need special eyeglasses. "They Live!" Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(a 1980's B Movie)
My wife and I did the Nielson thing for a week. I fear we'll never be invited again. All we watched was cable programming, not the major networks. What a joke!
R
You know, Rush mentioned that as well, once. He finally, after waiting all his life had a chance to be a part of a polling survey. He missed the call by a few minutes......
Nope, never been polled....
I"ve never been polled either. In the words of Jerry Seinfled, "Who are these people?"

Well "they" exist go and ask most minorities. It is easy to say it doesn't exist if you are on the other side of the fence.

I saw that Movie! Roddy Piper! His fameous line, "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum and I'm all out of bubblegum!"
LOL...I have to tell you something. PLEASE go to either one of these two websites. If you have any kind of a sense of humor (and I know you do) you'll get a kick out of this.
Either go to http://www.msnbc.msn.com
or to http://www.jibjab.com. They're overwhelmed, but can send you to a different site to view this funny film. Let me know what you think.
:-)
LMAO ! That was funny! I like the dancing! :) I like the part where Bush called him a "pinko commie"! LOL! Just kidding! :)
My favorite part was, of course, the attempted insertion of a brain into the only president we've ever had that's truly dumber than a box of rocks (and I'm not kidding).The second thing I liked was the Indian who reminded us that this was HIS land.
If Bush is really that stupid than how can he have "Masterminded" taking over the entire world to further his facist regime? :)
Peacemaker: here's an interesting article relaying to gay marriage and unintentioned circumstances. I realize this is going to spark another huge debate, but what the hell.

http://www.nationalreview.c...
I'll go to your site tomorrow, Neocon, and I'll see what I can stir up. :-)
I was just stopping by to add a couple things. I noticed that Bush parts his hair on the left, and Kerry parts his on the right...LOL...as long as we're into this left/right stuff.

Oh, and MASTERMINDED??? I can't stop laughing. Bush couldn't do anything without asking for someone else's help. He usually goes to daddy, or Billy Graham, but there are a slew of people that run the government, and Bush is just a basic figurehead. He couldn't carry on a conversation without a speechwriter, as we have all seen over the past 4 years. The word "illiterate" has been used to describe him for years. People didn't just grab that word out of hat. It's because he is!
Hmmmmmmmmm......An illiterate Bush with moral judgement and courage in action, or a glib Clinton who surprises us with "real" definitions of simple lexicon, educates us in new uses for cigars and pisses on our soldiers.

An illiterate Bush who takes the battle to the terrorists, or a glib Clinton who looks at polls to determine Americans aren't interested. Well, he did bomb a couple factories and delved into the possibility of"nabbing" Osama, but Monica took the blood from his brain.

An illiterate Bush who is at the least mentally sound and aware he's a small part of the American picture, or a glib Clinton who has (as you must know) serious psychological issues, because the world revolves around him (small child mentality and narcisssim).

Yeah.....I'll take Bush, thank you very much.
A note on the honor and integrity of the United Nations, an organization that fights for justice in this world. In this case, they're "afraid" to protect their own in Iraq:
http://www.mudvillegazette....
Pathetic, cowardly and an affront to humanity.

"...the United Nations has been unable to secure enough troops to protect a U.N. contingent headed to the country to help with elections and rebuilding.
When the U.N. Security Council voted six weeks ago to authorize a protective force, it expected contributors to step forward. But countries have balked at taking part in a force expected to include 1,000 troops and several dozen bodyguards. Diplomats said many nations were hesitating because of the dangers — including a wave of kidnappings — and costs as well as the continuing unpopularity of the U.S. invasion."

"It's a difficult problem for these countries, especially at a time when other countries [with troops in Iraq] are pulling out, or planning to leave ahead of schedule," a U.N. diplomat said. "Discussions are continuing. So far no one has stepped forward."
"Bush with moral judgement and courage in action"

LOLOLOLOL!! Moral judgement? Bush couldn't even pronounce it, and courage?? ... that's an even bigger laugh. Let's see. When he finally DID find out about the WTC, he zig-zagged his way to Nebraska. Nebraska? Hey, man, the trouble was in his neighborhood, so like any man with courage, he ran in the opposite direction. Now, if YOUR family was in a burning house, would YOU fly in the opposite direction?

"Well, he did bomb a couple factories and delved into the possibility of"nabbing" Osama."

And Bush? Let's see, he started a war that's killed thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of our own men....and delved into the possiblity of "nabbing" Osama." :-)
Paula Zahn was interviewing a man whose daughter was killed in the Pentagon. He wanted to ask why we hadn't found Osama, yet, since we've known, from the beginning where he was. He asked if we could bomb parts of Iraq, why we couldnt' bomb the Afghanistan/Pakistan border (where Osama is). I thought it was a great question. I think the answer is waiting until just before election. If we ever get him (while Bush is in office), it will be then. He's had 3 years to find one 7' tall man. Hell, I could have found him in less time than that....by myself.
"An illiterate Bush who is at the least mentally sound and aware he's a small part of the American picture, or a glib Clinton who has (as you must know) serious psychological issues, because the world revolves around him (small child mentality and narcisssim)."

Here you have just reversed your names. It was obviously a typo. Just put the word "Clinton" where you typed in "Bush" and vice-versa, and your paragraph will then be accurate.

NEWS FLASH!!!!! Clinton already was the president for 8 years. He isn't running. It's Kerry that's running against Bush, so why are you comparing Bush to Clinton. Still can't get over that blow-job can ya'? The truth of the matter is that when he was president, people couldn't find anything wrong with his presidency, so they've been dwelling on a little illicit affair. Christ, if his wife can get passed it, why can't you?
I don't hear you comparing Bush to Lincoln, who had a mistress, or Kennedy, who had several, and to any other past presidents, who all had affairs. Get over it!
When Clinton was president, there was only talk of attacks by Osama. When Bush became president, those same 'talks' will still taking place, but there was, apparently, according to our GREAT security, nothing substantial. Well, I don't blame either president for the lousy security and so-called intelligence of the CIA, etc. We're still hearing threats, everyday, in the news about Osama's plans for more attacks. What are we doing about it? NOTHING! We are talking about repairing Iraq, elections, and now, taking on Iran, but nobody seems to be paying attention to the threats made by Osama. Well, don't be surprised if another 9/11 happens again, while we've got our heads up our ass talking about Iraq and Saddam, and fighting amoung ourselves over Clinton's 6-year-old blow job.
Just as an end note: Hitler was a decorated war hero. He didn't smoke, he didn't drink, and he never had an illicit affair. Sounds like a pretty good candidate for president, doesn't he? I'll choose Clinton, thank you. Too bad he isn't running.
Oh, and remember when I talked about how 'we' (my generation) was raised to accept responsibility for our actions, ex: breaking a neighbor's window with a baseball, and having to work off the money to pay for it. If we got into trouble we got into trouble, and usually our parents let us suffer the consequences...like a night in jail, or whatever. Well, if you were GWB, you went to daddy, and daddy got you out of all the trouble, by paying off the cops, or paying off the judge, or paying off the president of the college so you could get a degree you didn't earn, etc. This only taught GW, that no matter what you do, you can pay your way out of it. You don't have to accept responsibility. You can blame someone else, and you can buy silence, degrees, freedom, etc. Money and power can get you anything, and 'honor' and 'courage' and 'responsibilty' are only words. That's the way your GWB was raised.
So obviously, you're not voting for Kerry, then. Afterall, he searches for rich wives to hang his hat on.
"Money and power can get you anything, and 'honor' and 'courage' and 'responsibilty' are only words."
So that means you're rooting for........yeah, we know who you're going to vote for, Peacemaker. You see how east it is to be a liberal? Hypocrisy is second nature.

"NEWS FLASH!!!!! Clinton already was the president for 8 years. He isn't running. It's Kerry that's running against Bush, so why are you comparing Bush to Clinton"
Because he's the most recent president to compare! Duh! Besides, Clinton and his era provides a perfect illustration of how bi-polar the Dems really are! I know you don't understand, but that's okay. Someday, when you get older and wiser, you will(wink wink).

"I'll choose Clinton, thank you. Too bad he isn't running."
Peacemaker, this may be a surprise, but ummmm....let me use your words- "NEWS FLASH!!!!! Clinton already was the president for 8 years."
He couldn't run even if he wanted to. Perhaps you weren't aware of the two term limit (ah youthful ignorance....once I was young too)(wink wink)

"And Bush? Let's see, he started a war that's killed thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of our own men....and delved into the possiblity of "nabbing" Osama." :-)
"I thought it was a great question. I think the answer is waiting until just before election. If we ever get him (while Bush is in office), it will be then. He's had 3 years to find one 7' tall man. Hell, I could have found him in less time than that....by myself."
Saddam the true murderer is shadowed by Bush. Brilliant! Why , in your angry world, that means GW stoodon the shoulder of FDR and Lincoln: two other presidents who "killed" thousands of innocents and many of our own. By the way, it was a dumb question by an armchair general who had no idea what was goingon in Afghanistan. They've been bombing themountains and smoking them out for two years. Duh!

But, you spoke like a true liberal, Peacemaker. There's no reason to deny your nature. I'm not embarrassed to be a neocon. Just admit it...

"We're still hearing threats, everyday, in the news about Osama's plans for more attacks. What are we doing about it? NOTHING! We are talking about repairing Iraq, elections, and now, taking on Iran, but nobody seems to be paying attention to the threats made by Osama."
Where'd you get that intellectual tidbit from, Sandy Bergers Underwear? Oh wait, heonlystuffed his cup..no his socks...that's right, you must have gotten that tidbit from his socks. Did you read that from MOVEON, or MichaelMoore.com, or the DNC website; all bastions of intellectual wisdom in foreign and national matters?

I know what you're doing, Peacemaker....you're writing useless, senseless diatribeto spark another week of debate.
Aren't you clever....hey, have a greta day!
Stupid Keyboard!!!
Neocon,

Where'd you get that intellectual tidbit from, Sandy Bergers Underwear? Oh wait, heonlystuffed his cup..no his socks...that's right, you must have gotten that tidbit from his socks. Did you read that from MOVEON, or MichaelMoore.com, or the DNC website; all bastions of intellectual wisdom in foreign and national matters?

LMAO!

Peacemaker,

I just fell off my chair! I am in utter total shock that a nonjudgemental, accepting, tolerant person would call our President such things! I sensed some hate in that tirade of yours! I think the "Leftist Jesus" would not be pleased.

Don't forget that the Clinton Administration was offered Osama THREE TIMES by the Sudanese! Yeah, Clinton was Presidanet for eight years, and what did he do after we were attacked at the WTC in 1993? What did he do when our embasys were bombed? Oh, yeah that's right, the day after it came out that he LIED about Monica he decided to bomb a pharmaceutical factory! Then the USS Cole, what did he do? I tell you Nothing!

Clinton was too worried about himself to do anything, becasue he was afraid off how it might look in the polls. In 1998 he knew we needed to go to war with Iraq, but was afraid of what the American people would think of him.

" Well, I don't blame either president for the lousy security and so-called intelligence of the CIA, etc. "

Well you should! Jamie Gorelic, Clinton's former Deputy Attorney General, developed such a wall between the CIA and the FBI it became impossible for them to communicate.

Oh yeah, Bush is either hiding Osama or to stupid to find him, Which is it?
""I'll choose Clinton, thank you. Too bad he isn't running."
Peacemaker, this may be a surprise, but ummmm....let me use your words- "NEWS FLASH!!!!! Clinton already was the president for 8 years."
He couldn't run even if he wanted to. Perhaps you weren't aware of the two term limit (ah youthful ignorance....once I was young too)(wink wink)"

My point, exactly, silly....but it zoomed right over your head..again! Sooo, why do you keep bringing him up? He's history!
"Saddam the true murderer is shadowed by Bush. Brilliant! Why , in your angry world, that means GW stoodon the shoulder of FDR and Lincoln: two other presidents who "killed" thousands of innocents and many of our own. By the way, it was a dumb question by an armchair general who had no idea what was goingon in Afghanistan. They've been bombing themountains and smoking them out for two years. Duh! "

Duh! is right. Didn't we start this war because Osama bin Laden attacked us, or did we start a war to get Saddam? Gee, I thought it was to get Osama and the terrorists who attacked us...silly me. They're still over there beheading people and have vowed to behead one a week until WE or the other countries having employees over there do as they say. My question, is why can't this great government of ours just find the SOB and the terrorists we went (supposedly went) over there to get in the first place? Being young, and stupid, like I am, I'm hoping you can give me a real answer to this question instead of more of your defensive crap that tells me nothing except that you're on the defensive. Stop attacking and answer the question? Why haven't we done what we went there to do?
"Don't forget that the Clinton Administration was offered Osama THREE TIMES by the Sudanese! Yeah, Clinton was Presidanet for eight years, and what did he do after we were attacked at the WTC in 1993? What did he do when our embasys were bombed? Oh, yeah that's right, the day after it came out that he LIED about Monica he decided to bomb a pharmaceutical factory! Then the USS Cole, what did he do? I tell you Nothing! "
This is just the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. What happened years ago with another president is history...it's over. There's nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it. The focus here is on your God, BUSH! HE IS THE PRESIDENT!!!....not Clinton, so let's see if we can get off Clinton long enough to get to the real TODAY issues. Bush is the President...get it? So, now, again, would you like to tell me whay BUSH can't seem to do the job he told the people he was going to do back in 2001? I realize that Saddam is a sick, nut. I never argued with that, and am happy he is no longer in power. I'm sure that there are other leaders out there who are equally as sick, but we're not talking about them, right now, we're discussing Osama bin Laden. So, get this straight...it's OSAMA BIN LADEN and BUSH that we're discussing. So see if you can answer the question. It's a simple elementary question...for an old, experienced guy like yourself, so what's the answer? Do I need to repeat the question for you?

:Oh yeah, Bush is either hiding Osama or to stupid to find him, Which is it? "
Hey, you tell me. You're the wise old man, here. Which is it??? I think only time will tell.
Neocon, I read your article. It didn't make a lot of sense. What in the world does allowing same-sex marriages have to do with the decline of marriage? Marriage has been declining for many, many years, and it's apparent to anyone why it is declining. So, are you saying that you believe that if two women get married in San Francisco that that will aid, in some way in the downfall of that great SOLID institution of marriage? Maybe if they get married, you'll get a divorce? Is that what you're saying? DAMN! I'm glad I'm a leftist, pinko, commie, hippie, baby killing, lib!!!! At least we have some assemblance of a brain? (I'm not even referring to you, Neocon, or your cohort, Kerrysucks), but people who write such trash. Anyone knows that same sex marriages couldn't possibly have an affect on someone else's marriage...unless, of course, you decided to leave your wife for another man... :-)
Also, statements like:...there is as yet no definitive scientific evidence to suggest the long campaign for the legalization of same-sex marriage contributed to these harmful trends. However, there are good reasons to believe the decline in Dutch marriage may be connected to the successful public campaign for the opening of marriage to same-sex couples in the Netherlands" are a contradiction. Same sex marriages haven't been in place long enough for us to know anything about them, but 20/20 hindsight can tell you all about it. Those marriages will be the same as heterosexual marriages. When one gets tired of the other, or one finds a younger, cuter, richer partner, they'll leave....just like we do. There'll be domestic violence...just like we have. Spouses will kill each other, just like we do. Some may kill their own children, just like we do.
Some will even live happily ever after celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary with their families. Hot damn! They'll be just like us!
"" Well, I don't blame either president for the lousy security and so-called intelligence of the CIA, etc. "

Well you should! Jamie Gorelic, Clinton's former Deputy Attorney General, developed such a wall between the CIA and the FBI it became impossible for them to communicate. "

Gee, shouldn't you blame Jamie Gorelic? I guess Clinton should've/could've fired him, but it seems to me that it's the people working around the president that are responsible for a lot of the shit that's going on. The president only knows what he's told. That is rather my point, that people who work around the prez can cause such a rift. As for Clinton, every thing he tried to accomplish was knocked down the Republican Congress. It's impossible for any president (Republican or Democrat) to function effectively, if the entire congress is the opposite party. So, rather than try to do what's best for the people, you get politics, instead.
Here, you should like this email I just got, but please take note of the part about "if you have any money after taxes" because it is speaking about the present, not the Clinton years, when we DID have some money after taxes. Hell, we even had jobs. Clinton (and I'm only talking about him because you are) at least kept American jobs in America, and wasn't sending them all overseas.
CONTRIBUTION REQUEST


Dear Friends and Relatives,

We have the distinguished honor of being on the committee to raise $5,000,000 for a monument of Bill Clinton. We originally wanted to put him on Mt. Rushmore until we discovered there was not enough room for two more faces.

We then decided to erect a statue of Bill Clinton in Washington, D. C. Hall Of Fame. We were in a quandary as to where the statue should be placed. It was not proper to place it beside the statue of George Washington, who never told a lie, or beside Jesse Jackson, who never told the truth, since Bill Clinton could never tell the difference.

We finally decided to place it beside Christopher Columbus, the greatest Democrat of them all. He left not knowing where he was going, and when he got there he did not know where he was. He returned not knowing where he had been, and did it all on someone else's money.

If you are one of the fortunate people who have anything left after taxes, we expect a generous contribution to this worthwhile project.

Thank you.

Bill Clinton Monument Committee

P. S. The Committee has raised $1.35 so far.


(Now let me get this straight.............

Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs. His wife Hillary got $8 million for hers.

That's $20 million for memories from two people who for eight years repeatedly testified, under oath, that they couldn't remember anything!)
"This is just the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. What happened years ago with another president is history...it's over. There's nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it. The focus here is on your God, BUSH! HE IS THE PRESIDENT!!!....not Clinton, "

First of all I'm not an old man. Second of all, you want Bush to take responsiblility for the whole war on terror. What I was trying to point out is things happened to lead up to 9/11. If Clinton had done his job then we could have nipped this in the bud 8 years ago! After his 8 years of neglegence on terror, YOU want to blame the whole thing on Bush, who wasn't even in office for 8 months. CLINTON had the chance to get him before 9/11! The whole thing could have been prevented! By the way Jamie Gorlic is a woman, and we have suffered grave consequences from her meddlings with the FBI and CIA.

Didn't you say,
"Oh, and remember when I talked about how 'we' (my generation) was raised to accept responsibility for our actions, ex: breaking a neighbor's window with a baseball, and having to work off the money to pay for it. If we got into trouble we got into trouble, and usually our parents let us suffer the consequences...like a night in jail, or whatever."

ummm hmmmmm......

"You don't have to accept responsibility. You can blame someone else, and you can buy silence, degrees, freedom, etc. Money and power can get you anything, and 'honor' and 'courage' and 'responsibilty' are only words."

Sounds like your Clinton arguement to me, "BLAME BUSH EXCUSE CLINTON!"

SLAM!

By your own words you would need to blame Clinton!

Now for your question, why we went to war with Iraq. Clinton knew we had to go to war with Iraq. It was feared that Saddam was gathering WMDs! On September 13, 2001 Bush said,"We will go after terrorist and those who Harbor them." We had intelligence that he was aquiring WMDs and that he was going to Niger to purchase yellowcake Uranium. We were already fighting the war in Afghanastan. (Osama). We knew that there were training camps for al-Queda in Iraq (harboring). We couldn't just sit there and take the chance that something more could happen. Remember on September 12, 2002 Bush went to the UN and made his speech? That' s where resolution 1441 was born, the whole world voted in favor of finding out whether or not Saddam had these weapons. The UN set a deadline, and in the past (1998) Saddam kept delaying and playing games, and even kicking out inspectors. Finally when the deadline came Bush said ''put up or shut up!" Well he didn't "put up" so he was "shut up!". Since then we have found sarin gas, mustard gas, arsenals where weapons were being made, training camps etc. I'm glad Saddam is gone! Let's face it, he was a threat!
Let me ask you a question, if Bush, like Clinton, just did NOTHING and we were attacked again, you don't think the "libs" would have been screaming, Oh why did we go after Saddam? We knew he was going to make weapons and all these people are dead because of Bush! "

You want it both ways.. You rewrite history to suit your arguement, then you try to blame Bush, and excuse all of Clinton's negligence! Bush is trying to protect your ass! You see where Clinton's so called protection got us!
"Gee, shouldn't you blame Jamie Gorelic? I guess Clinton should've/could've fired him, but it seems to me that it's the people working around the president that are responsible for a lot of the shit that's going on. The president only knows what he's told. That is rather my point, that people who work around the prez can cause such a rift. As for Clinton, every thing he tried to accomplish was knocked down the Republican Congress. It's impossible for any president (Republican or Democrat) to function effectively, if the entire congress is the opposite party. So, rather than try to do what's best for the people, you get politics, instead. "

Here is more of your excuse making for Clinton! Republican congress came in 1994, yes deffineltly 1994( a little Rainman for you) So why didn't he get Hillary's fameous Health Care CRAP passed!? LOL!
"I know you don't understand, but that's okay. Someday, when you get older and wiser, you will(wink wink). "
"ah youthful ignorance....once I was young too)(wink wink) "
"First of all I'm not an old man."

I was talking to Neocon when I made the comment regarding age...It was a little sacrasm. You should recognize it.

I know Jamie is a woman...I see I put him...just a typo. I was in a hurry; sorry.
"Let me ask you a question, if Bush, like Clinton, just did NOTHING and we were attacked again, you don't think the "libs" would have been screaming, Oh why did we go after Saddam? We knew he was going to make weapons and all these people are dead because of Bush! "

If you're going to continue to blame Clinton for everything because Bush has been in office 4 years, maybe you should blame Bush Sr. for leaving the office in turmoil when HE left, because each president starts out with the good and bad left by his Predecessor. So, for all practical purposes, we should really blame Washington because he started all this.

"Didn't you say,
"Oh, and remember when I talked about how 'we' (my generation) was raised to accept responsibility for our actions, ex: breaking a neighbor's window with a baseball, and having to work off the money to pay for it. If we got into trouble we got into trouble, and usually our parents let us suffer the consequences...like a night in jail, or whatever."

ummm hmmmmm......

"You don't have to accept responsibility. You can blame someone else, and you can buy silence, degrees, freedom, etc. Money and power can get you anything, and 'honor' and 'courage' and 'responsibilty' are only words."

Sounds like your Clinton arguement to me, "BLAME BUSH EXCUSE CLINTON!"
Boy, don't you love to take things and twist them like a pretzel?!!!

I'm blaming Bush (not for what was left for him by Clinton) but for never having to face up to his responsibilities as a child and always having his daddy buy him out of trouble. This, has nothing to do with Clinton. Clinton didn't raise GW, and he didn't pay big bucks so GW wouldn't have to face his responsibilities. It was GW's father who let him slide through life on a buck, rather than honesty, honor, responsibility and truth.

When Bush was told of 9/11 he sat there in this classroom for 7 minutes or longer (still reading to kids) and doing NOTHING. Had he acted, he could've gotten planes up in the air and perhaps stopped the plane from going into the pentagon, etc. But, no. He chose to call the White house to check on Laura, and so did Cheney. Isn't there some kind of plan when something like this happens? Well, there should be. He should be taking immediate action to protect US instead of wasting his time checking on relatives, reading to kids, and zigzagging around the skies to Nebraska. And...what abour NORAD? What the hell is that? If NORAD can't protect us, then it's worthless. And....my point before was that we ARE being threatened, NOW, by Osama bin Laden, and Bush, as usual, is doing nothing. He's ignoring the threats, and so when I bring something like this up, you always revert back to Clinton. Well, Clinton isn't the president, BUSH IS, so since we're being openly threatened at THIS MOMENT, where the hell is your GOD, Bush?
You bring up Clinton, continuously because you have no factual, intelligent, argument against what I'm saying, so in comes Clinton again. SHIT, get out of the past. Bush has had plenty of time to show us what HE can do in HIS presidency, and he sure as hell has. All you can do, when you can't say anything else, is "blame Clinton. FUCK CLINTON. What is Bush going to do about our current threat of terrorism by the man he can't seem to catch, and apparently isn't really trying to find. WHAT? Well, he'll do the same thing Clinton did....the same thing HE did in the beginning....he'll wait until we're attacked again. Don't you think, since Clinton knew about Osama bin Laden's threats, that Bush wasn't apprised of them when taking office? Well, what did HE do about it....nothing. He waited until we were attacked. Now...same thing. He's doing nothing. The only difference is that back then, we (the American people) weren't aware of his threats. Now, we are. We know he's planning more attacks, and so we wait...relying on your God, Bush. What's he gonna do? Huh?
Peacemaker said,"DAMN! I'm glad I'm a leftist, pinko, commie, hippie, baby killing, lib!!!!"
What the hell isyour beef, Mr Peacemaker? No one on this site hascalled you a hippie baby killer! I might remind you it was the lefty pinkos who are in power today who spit on you and called you baby killer yesterday(figuratively speaking).

"Gee, shouldn't you blame Jamie Gorelic? I guess Clinton should've/could've fired him". Gorelick is a Girlie-Woman, Peacemaker, not a Dem Girlie-Man.

I believe Kerrysucks has done a fabulous job of explaining our discussion with Clinton. How Democratic of you tosay, Bygones are Bygones, but try and blame all this shit in the last few years on GW Bush. No wonder you don't want to discuss the failures of the Clinton Admin. Why, right now, Berger is getting strip searched, along with a detailed cavity search for missing documents relating to THE CLINTON ERA'S TREATMENT OF TERRORIST THREATS IN 1999.
Why? Because people like you have enjoyed the media's undying attention in blaming Bush for the whole fucking affair, leaving Clinton to travelaround getting rich off his book of psycho lies.

"As for Clinton, every thing he tried to accomplish was knocked down the Republican Congress. It's impossible for any president (Republican or Democrat) to function effectively, if the entire congress is the opposite party. So, rather than try to do what's best for the people, you get politics, instead."
Bullshit. Clinton avoided welfare reform UNTIL the Republicans came in. Clinton himself vetoed legislation dealing with Partial Birth Abortions(I know, he's your hero for it).
Hillary's grand schemeof Health Care Reform occurred under DEM Majority. It failed.
Andlet's not forget, the Dems had over40 years of majority in Congress and what did they accomplish?
Civil Rights reform (thanks to the Republican minority); The Great Society legislation (whichtodate has done not a fucking thing). Yadda Yadda Yadda.

"Duh! is right. Didn't we start this war because Osama bin Laden attacked us, or did we start a war to get Saddam? Gee, I thought it was to get Osama and the terrorists who attacked us...silly me."
Well, you are quite silly, to believe killing Osama is completing the job. Perhaps you should be paying more attention, Peacemaker to contemporary political events. Let me provide some info:
Weeks after 9/11, Bush is told by Putin that Iraq is looking to do damage to the US; we find through intelligence Saddam did attempt to purchase yellowcake from Niger; we know he flaunted security resolutions for 12 years (each one should have been answered with military action-few were with minimal bombings); we know how many people he's killedin his reign of power; we know he supported terrorism, including Al Qaeda members; we also knew that the UN was on the verge of abandoning sanctions on theirpremiseno WMD's could be found; and we knew Saddam had all the necessary equipment and manpower to start all over again; we knew he had billions(thanks to the UN, as we'vediscovered)to disperse with allother terrorist groups worldwide.

In short, after the toppling of the Taliban, Saddam was by far the most dangerous man in the world.
I seem to recall you screaming how WE, the US gave Saddam all those weapons and allowed him to kill so many:
"One more thing, Neocon. In discussing the current war, who gave Saddam the WMD? WE DID! We didn't seem to give a damn that he was using them on the Kurds and to torture and slowing kill his own people. We helped him do it....for some oil...I guess. Then, when he pissed off Daddy Bush, that's when the war started. Now Baby Bush is trying to get revenge and finish what daddy started."
Hey, Buddy!!!! THAT was THEN, THIS is NOW! IT's HISTORY. Let us finish the job of ousting a dictator whom we supported to stave off Soviet Expansion thanks to the complete failure of Carter. Let us finish the job GHW Bush couldn't finish thanks to the Libs and Euro sissies! Let us finish the job Clinton should have finished so long ago!!
Our war on terrorism is going to continue as long as Iran is a despot, as long as Syria continues to harbor terrorists,as long as thePalestinian murderers continue to kill Israelis, prolonging a 60 year War. Osama is the big target, but not the final blow.

Have a nice, safe weekend, Peacemaker and Kerrysucks.
"September 13, 2001 Bush said,"We will go after terrorist and those who Harbor them." We had intelligence that he was aquiring WMDs and that he was going to Niger to purchase yellowcake Uranium. We were already fighting the war in Afghanastan. (Osama). We knew that there were training camps for al-Queda in Iraq (harboring). We couldn't just sit there and take the chance that something more could happen. "

This made me laugh...because immediately after this statement, you went right to Saddam. Bush must have lied when he made this statement, because he still hasn't gone after the terrorists that attacked the WTC. He's only been concerned with Saddam...and we all...well, not you, but the rest of us, know why.
Again, you said "On September 13th, 2001" Bush made this statement. Well, it's now, almost 3 years later, and where has he gone after bin Laden and "those who harbor him"? NOPE! He went straight after Saddam. Do you really believe it was Saddam who was behind the attack on the WTC, the Pentagon, and 'almost the White House'?
Again, I have to keep repeating myself regarding Saddam. I'm glad they got him! How many times do I have to say that??? That stil doesn't excuse Bush or explain why he hasn't been able to do what he promised to do regarding the attacks on us on September 11, 2001. He has spent 3 years to find one guy (who fought against daddy) and still hasn't been able to keep his promise to end terrorism and capture Osama bin Laden. Terrorism is probably worse, now, than it was in 2001, and all Bush has managed to do is make the USA more hated, stirring up more terrorists against us, and weekly beheadings of innocent people. Bush just pissed 'em off, that's all. He hasn't ended anything or even put a dent in it. Terrorism is alive and well, and so is Osama bin Laden!!!! Now, go ahead and blame Clinton. You will anyway. In fact, the whole thing's probably my fault.
"When Bush was told of 9/11 he sat there in this classroom for 7 minutes or longer (still reading to kids) and doing NOTHING. Had he acted, he could've gotten planes up in the air and perhaps stopped the plane from going into the pentagon, etc. But, no. He chose to call the White house to check on Laura, and so did Cheney. Isn't there some kind of plan when something like this happens?"
Peacemaker, straight out of a Michael Moore film. You are a true fan, afterall. I really don't think Kerrysucks and I should bother wastingour time defending these completely stupid, baseless, and hateful comments from Mooreites who hate this country as much as they hate Republicans. This paragraph you wrote, Peacemaker is pathetic.
Do yourself a favor, please- Sit down on your office sofa and ask yourself where all this anger and hate cam from. Be sure to take notes and stay off the Prozac, for godsakes!
"Why, right now, Berger is getting strip searched, along with a detailed cavity search for missing documents relating to THE CLINTON ERA'S TREATMENT OF TERRORIST THREATS IN 1999.
LOL! GOD, if he's had these documents up his ass for 5 years, I wouldn't want to be the one to find them. :-)

You have a nice, safe weekend, too. :-)
"This made me laugh...because immediately after this statement, you went right to Saddam. Bush must have lied when he made this statement, because he still hasn't gone after the terrorists that attacked the WTC. He's only been concerned with Saddam...and we all...well, not you, but the rest of us, know why."
What planet are you on? He still hasn't gone after the terrorists who attacked us? My God, Peacemaker, for a wise old man, you are incredibly ignorant! Stop writing herefor awhile and just read something! Jesus Christ Almighty!!

Kerrysucks and I like you Peacemaker, but we can't bear to see you like this, frothing at the mouth and speaking in Michael Mooranian Tongue thinkingit's truth. It breaks our conservative-compassionate hearts tosee you suffering in the spasms of complete ignorance. If you can't help yourself, please start listening to Prager, Medved and Hewitt.
Peacemaker: I must go back to work...to conclude- Kissy Kissy...TTFN
LOL! Ya' know Neocon, I've been giving the 'cavity search' thing some thought. I'm trying to visualize this. If these missing documents were up his ass for the past 5 years...well, you can imagine. Then again, where else could they be? Up his nose? Well, they must have been very small documents. What other cavities are there? Has he had them in his mouth all this time? His ears, perhaps? Maybe he's a girlie-man and has them up his vagina. Still, can't be a large document...and documents...that makes it plural (more than one document). Gee, I'll be all day trying to figure out where he could have hidden ALL these documents. Strip searching is just as ridiculous, and something that the Republicans would think of 5 years later. Let's see...he's probably wearing them on him. He probably hasn't changed his clothes in 5 years, or washed them, so the documents are still in his shirt pocket. Only the Bush administration would spend time and money to do something like that, and only a president as dumb as Bush would have even thought about something so bizarre!
Peacemaker: Talking shit again................
hahahahahahahahahahaha. Peacemaker, this kind of lewd humor gets you good points from me. Still, don't be thinking about leather stars and cavities for too long...
LMAO! Great dialouge!

Neocon made all the points I was going to make! Great job!

I just have few to add a few

" you're going to continue to blame Clinton for everything because Bush has been in office 4 years, maybe you should blame Bush Sr. for leaving the office in turmoil when HE left, because each president starts out with the good and bad left by his Predecessor. So, for all practical purposes, we should really blame Washington because he started all this."

The point I was trying to point out with Clinton was that had he taken Osama from the Sudanese there would have been 9/11! We wouldn't have had to go to war! why do you think Sandy went and kestered those documents? Because he wanted to protect his boss! Clinton fell short on terrorism, far short, and they wanted to cover their asses or should I say cavaties! YUCK!

"When Bush was told of 9/11 he sat there in this classroom for 7 minutes or longer (still reading to kids) and doing NOTHING. Had he acted, he could've gotten planes up in the air and perhaps stopped the plane from going into the pentagon, etc. But, no. He chose to call the White house to check on Laura, and so did Cheney. Isn't there some kind of plan when something like this happens?"

This is my favorite Michael Moore arguent! "OMFG he sat there for 7 whole minutes!" Now realisticly what did you think he would do? Jump up in front of all the kids and yell, " GOD HELP US ALL WE ARE GOING TO DIE!" I think I sat there for 7 minutes too! Now let us say after 1 minute and thirty-five seconds he bombed Afghanastan? Then you can't tell me that the "Lib argument" wouldn't be "Oh my God Bush has only been in office for 8 months and BEFORE he could find anything out he just bombed a whole country!" Why he's a war monger!" Things went into action by themselves like the FAA made all the planes come down. I watched I think Dateline "A Year After 9/11" with Tom Brokaw and Bush wanted to go back to the WHite HOuse. The reasson he was zig zagging the country is for security, that is what they would do to any President if we were under attack.

"Terrorism is probably worse, now, than it was in 2001, and all Bush has managed to do is make the USA more hated, stirring up more terrorists against us, and weekly beheadings of innocent people. Bush just pissed 'em off, that's all. He hasn't ended anything or even put a dent in it. "

According to the 9/11 commissions Report section 15, talks about how we are defeating terrorism! There is even a letter form Zarquawi to Osama about how we are "choking him out" We have ruined them finacially etc.

You guys have a nice weekend too!
The prevalence on the American left, in Europe and even Canada of comparing our President Bush to Hitler and therefore, the US as a Fascist State is getting old and tiresome. Here is a link providing the Nazi Political Platform dating from 1920 and updated in the mid 1920's. As you'll see, a comparison is ludicrous, ignorant and incredibly dangerous. Bush is blamed for alienating the world, but the truth is, it's the leftists,socialists and democracy haters who propagate this rhetoric: please read, especially Point 24: COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD(SOUNDS VERRRRRYYY LIBERAL TO ME).

http://www.learntoquestion....
Hi Neocon,

I tried to open your site but it didn't work. You are so right though. You know how the left has been saying Bush lied? Well do you notice now they are focusing in on Iran and the "7 min" arguement? I wonder if anyone on the left realizes that they have been lied to yet? Every single one of their "Michael Moore" arguments have fallen short, but like sheep they keep on following! I mean Joe Wilson, Michael Moore, Clinton, Sandy Berger, what do they have in common? They are all a bunch of liars!

The Hitler comaparison is astounding! Especially because Bush is trying to free the poor Iraqi people! Why doesn't the left want the Iraqi people to have freedom!? If there is a democracy in Iraq then this can only help the middle east. I just don't get it! They blame Bush, but excuse Clinton! We could have had Osama!
Neocon,

It worked! Whoa Nelly! It sounds like the platform to the DNC. Their convention starts this Sunday, I bet they use this site to write their speeches! LOL!
""OMFG he sat there for 7 whole minutes!" Now realisticly what did you think he would do? Jump up in front of all the kids and yell, " GOD HELP US ALL WE ARE GOING TO DIE!" I think I sat there for 7 minutes too! "

A lot can be done in 7 minutes. The fire department can get to your house and start putting out the fire long before that. 7 minutes in an emergency is a long damn time. My point, is that there should have been (and who knows if there is, now) a plan in place for such emergencies, so that Mrs. President can be safely taken care of so that the heads of our country aren't having to call home to check on the wife. Zigzagging across the country isn't a brave thing to do, now is it? Sounds to me like he was only out to protect himself. THEN he'd act like he was worried about the rest of us.
"I wonder if anyone on the left realizes that they have been lied to yet?"
This is the funniest statement that I've seen on this forum. We've been wondering the same thing! :-) Do you really believe that you're the only ones telling the truth? You do have tunnelvision, narrow minds, one-track minds, and totally closed minds. You are right and we are wrong and there is no in between, is there?
"Zigzagging across the country isn't a brave thing to do, now is it? Sounds to me like he was only out to protect himself. THEN he'd act like he was worried about the rest of us."

Things were done within the 7 minutes, the airforce was flying flight patterns, the FAA ordered all flights cancelled. What could he have done in 7 minutes? Should Bush have run straight for the nuclear football?

Do you really believe that the President decided to to that? That was a security meadure that ANY president would have done! NOW YOUR GOING TO FAULT HIM FOR CALLING HIS WIFE? Good God you don't think Kerry or Clinton would call thier wives?

"This is the funniest statement that I've seen on this forum. We've been wondering the same thing! :-) Do you really believe that you're the only ones telling the truth? You do have tunnelvision, narrow minds, one-track minds, and totally closed minds. You are right and we are wrong and there is no in between, is there?'

The funny thing is we conservaitves laugh every single day! It amazes us that you continue to follow even when YOUR guys have told you that Bush lied, and then you find out they are the liars! PROVEN LIARS! You are being duped! :)
Peacemaker said: "We've been wondering the same thing! :-)" OK, you've finally admit you're one of THEM!!! So don't get offended when we call you a Lib. Just don't ad lib by claiming we call you a hippie baby-killer. Pinko, maybe, but in good fun.

And please, Peacemaker, get through your head: because of what happened to JFK, the Secret Service goes through extreme precautions to take care of the Pres. Yes, that includes zigzagging. DUH!!!!

It's so funny, isn't it? THEY accuse Bush of preemptive action in Iraq and then ask why no Preemptive action was taken against Osama and the Taliban(refer to the final report and early conclusions of the leftist commission members); they accuse Bush of being a cowboy, but on Sept 11, when he doesn't draw his six gun and call the nukes and bombers out on Osama immediately, he's called a coward (fucking Jabba the Moore; that fat-ass couldn't move fast enough to avoid farting on himself).

I distinctly remember these same screaming maniacal leftists urging patience on immediate action, because we weren't sure who'd done it yet (remember McVay).
Well, Peacemaker, did you know immediately who did it? What was Bush to do? Simply nuke the entire Middle-East? And in case you didn't know, all airplanes in this country were immediately grounded, with an immediate order to shoot down any looseflying aircraft. Bush was in constant contact in AirForce One (the only safe place for him at the time). Just days after the tragedy, the asshole libs were claiming he was dancing in the clouds to save his own hide. What a crock of shit!

After TWA 800, Gore outlined suggestions calling for improvement to security on the ground and in the air. Let's see now......Gore was a....that's right! The right hand man of Pres. Clinton who did a damn good job of avoiding Bin Laden several times, taking no action on the USS Cole bombing(unlike Bush, Clinton was just google-eyed for two minutes after the bombing of the USS Cole, as Monica was too good at her "JOB" to make it last more than two), and spending several years convicting some of the terrorists who tried to blow up the WTC the first time.

Three years later, however, after Afghanistan has been completely altered, Osama is on the run, and after Saddam, the other tyrannical terrorist has been captured; the left as nothing else to bitch about credibly, so they resort to calling the Cowboy Pres., a Cowgirl and insisting that the first Bush should've done what we're doing NOW in Iraq.

Kerrysucks:"The funny thing is we conservaitves laugh every single day! It amazes us that you continue to follow even when YOUR guys have told you that Bush lied, and then you find out they are the liars! PROVEN LIARS! You are being duped! :)"
AMEN!!!! The only defense for these spineless assholes who call themselves intellectuals is "Unfair timing! Why now!"" (sob sob sob sob).

They crucify Trent Lott and protect Dodd and Jesse Jackson (Hymie Hater); they would have crucified Bush and Condi over this if the shoe was on the other foot, but as we see in all the media, their "Watergate" was an inadvertent mistake.
The Clintonian Proverbial Excuse:
"I inadveretently stuffed shit down my pants, into my socks and up my wind-blown ass!! It was innocent!!"

"I'll take my Cheesy Berger WELL DONE PLEASE!"
"(fucking Jabba the Moore; that fat-ass couldn't move fast enough to avoid farting on himself). "

LOL. Good job, Neocon, that was funny.
"And in case you didn't know, all airplanes in this country were immediately grounded, with an immediate order to shoot down any looseflying aircraft."
Not exactly! There was so much confusion in the air and on the ground, that those planes that were ordered to land wherever they happened to be, were not allowed (by some airports) to land because of the fear and because the airports were afraid to let unknown planes land. A plane circled over my city during all the excitement of 9/11, and the people in my city were frightened, because my city happens to be in the path of Washington, D.C., and the reason it continued to circle is because it was told to land, but they were afraid to let them land. The plane that hit the Pentagon flew over my city.
That day was a mass of confusion for everybody.
"After TWA 800,"
Humor me. One of my closest friends was on the plane headed for Paris. I'd really prefer if we didn't bring up that particular incident.
"and insisting that the first Bush should've done what we're doing NOW in Iraq. "
Well, maybe he should've! Look at all the people's lives that could have been saved.

"They crucify Trent Lott and protect Dodd and Jesse Jackson (Hymie Hater); "
We sure can agree on Jesse Jackson!!!!! That's all I'll say about that. Don't care about Trent, but make sure you're specific about what Dodd you're talking about. That's MY name!!! :-)
I should be protected....I'm a peacemaker!
"to land because of the fear and because the airports were afraid to let unknown planes land. "

LOL Ooops! Got a little carried away with the fear factor. :-)

Oh, and no...no relation to Chris...well, Chris is actually my nephew, but not Senator Chris.
BTW, Neocon, can you get Zarq a green card?
Neocon!
Once again you have me LMAO! Right on the money!

(fucking Jabba the Moore; that fat-ass couldn't move fast enough to avoid farting on himself). " CLASSIC! LMAO!

"Not exactly! There was so much confusion in the air and on the ground, that those planes that were ordered to land wherever they happened to be, were not allowed (by some airports) to land because of the fear and because the airports were afraid to let unknown planes land."

Actually I watched another show and it said most planes were down inside an hour! That is fantastic considering how many planes there were!

Where is Zarq? DId we scare him away? :)
"Actually I watched another show and it said most planes were down inside an hour! That is fantastic considering how many planes there were!"

This is true. I was just mentioning an incident that happened here, and probably happened other places because everyone in the country was scared, especially of unknown planes. Airports were just afraid to let them land. They didn't know, at the time, how many 'enemy' planes were up there. It was a frightening time.
No, we didn't scare him away. He's lurking. :-)
Me? Get him a greencard? You may be surprised to know I'm just a blow-hard American schmuck paying my bills and wasting my worktime on AZPlace.

So, Zarkon wants to come home.....

Peacemaker, I'm sorry about your friend; we're all proud and thankful for your service. You're a good man. Don't worry..there's only one Chris Dodd that I know of with no shame....

Now we just have to turn you to the "Right-Side".

Wow...I must be the only local-yuckster on this website. I'm sitting in my AC Home as the city of Phoenix continues to hit 105+.

Look at this! Another end of a good debate. Peacemaker, say something outrageous to keep this going! (LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL)
"Now we just have to turn you to the "Right-Side".

I'm just plain RIGHT, and I'm right-handed! That's about all the 'right' you're gonna get from me! :-)

Is that good enough to start another good argument?

I will say one thing. From all I've been reading in ALL the newspapers, etc. (even Fox) it wouldn't surprise me if we aren't headed for WWIII. Things are awfully 'Ify' at the moment. It's not just 'everybody hates America', it's everybody hates everybody. It's of great concern that one person (don't really give a damn who it is) has the control to push that button....not just here, but any place else that might possess the capabilities. This biological warfare shit....well, whomever starts it is going to kill us all, so I hope they keep that in mind. Sometimes, however, the mind is a hard thing to control....well, you know that, Neocon. LOL
Keep your smiles up Peacemaker, things are never as bad as they seem.

Guess Where I have been? San Diego! My husband had a convention. I walked to the Sea Port Village and saw the USS Ronald Reagan! It was Awesome! My husband talked to a sailor that was on board, and he said that he can't believe how bad the press is handling the war. We are helping these Iraqis (the conditions were horrid, they could barely feed themselves) and now we are rebuilding the country! He said all the US press can harp on is the blood for oil crap, and he said it was pure propaganda. That is coming from someone who was there!

Be optimistic the liberal press just wants things to look bad so Kerry will win! LOL!

You live on the east coast Peacemaker?

Neocon stay cool! I heard it has been hot here in LA too!
"You live on the east coast Peacemaker?"

Yes...and it's pretty darn hot here as well! In that post that I never got around to answering because it went over the word limit, I was telling you that my daughter lived in LA. Neocon said he was "thirty something" and for some reason, I'm thinking you're in the same age range, and so is my daughter. I have two, actually (both in their mid thirties) but the oldest lives in LA. She loves it out there. Me...well, I think it's too far away, and she should come home. I miss her. However, when she was in the first Gulf War, that was really too far away (I was in a constant state of worry), so I guess California is ok. At least it's still in the country. :-)
We used to live in SF when she was little, but she doesn't really remember that. We were only there a couple years. I liked it, though.
Peacemaker,

Yes, I am thirty something too. It must be hard having her so far away. A lot of my dad's side of the family live in Missouri. We still go back every couple of years, and it is so hard saying goodbye. :(
Me? Get him a greencard? You may be surprised to know I'm just a blow-hard American schmuck paying my bills and wasting my worktime on AZPlace."

BTW, Neocon. This was just a joke to see what you'd say. You disappointed us by being so nice about it. :-)

So, Zarkon wants to come home.....

He IS home!

"Peacemaker, I'm sorry about your friend"

Thanks. That was a toughy. We grew up together and were friends since before 1st grade. You never, in your wildest dreams think something like THAT is going to happen. He left a wife and two kids and a good life. He is missed!


"Look at this! Another end of a good debate. Peacemaker, say something outrageous to keep this going! "
LOL I'm having trouble with this one. I've been so busy (you see, I sold my house and must be out by Aug.1, which is in a very few days, and it's hard to believe what a person can accumulate in 20 years). It seems like a never-ending mass of 'stuff', and I keep finding more.

I haven't been on as much because I'm so busy, and I'm speculating that you, Neocon, haven't been on here because there's no good debate going on. :-)
BTW, Peacemakers like that sort of thing. :-)
I would suggest YOU say something bizarre (that you think is totally rational) so that I could tell you what an idiot you are, but then we'd only have a short argument because I'll be gone in a few days. :-)
Anyway, I hope your absence isn't because you're ill or something. You, like Zarq could just be lurking.
Hmm ... I'm a card-carrying, voting, lesbian gun-owning Democrat who believes we should have assassinated Saddam rather than kill hundreds of our own soldiers while wasting the lives of thousands of powerless Iraqis, and I don't identify with much of anything in the list of "Things You Have To Believe To Be A Democrat Today."

However, I did pass on the list of things you have to believe to be a Republican to about 50 of my closest friends and family, because it rang true for me.

Funny how that works.
Well, another country heard from! I thought Kerrysucks, Neocon, and I were all that was left around here. Personally, I'm still waiting for the real culprit we were supposed to be after in the first place. My friend calls him Sammy bin Laden. Well, I'm for assassinating them both. Handing Saddam back to his own people and saying, "have at it" would work for me, as well. It might be fun to see what they would do to him. I think Osama should ingest or inhale some biological weapons. Not too much, you understand. Just enough to make his death VERY slow and VERY painful.
Going back to read some of what's been posted, I found this from Neocon:

"I distinctly remember these same screaming maniacal leftists urging patience on immediate action, because we weren't sure who'd done it yet (remember McVay [sic*]).
Well, Peacemaker, did you know immediately who did it? What was Bush to do? Simply nuke the entire Middle-East? And in case you didn't know, all airplanes in this country were immediately grounded, with an immediate order to shoot down any looseflying aircraft. Bush was in constant contact in AirForce One (the only safe place for him at the time). Just days after the tragedy, the asshole libs were claiming he was dancing in the clouds to save his own hide. What a crock of shit!"

Just to set the record straight for at least THIS Democrat, I don't blame Bush for anything that happened pre- or JUST post-9/11. That he continued to read to the kiddies in Florida for 7 minutes doesn't bother me; afterall, he's human (or a reasonable facsimile thereof), and was stunned. Anyone would be.

What pisses me off is that Bush has used and continues to use 9/11 to justify and further his agenda. It's like that cartoon that's gone around that shows the official Administration response to every question to be "9/11."

Why have there been so many U.S. jobs lost? "9/11. The terrorists." Etc. Give me a break!

No one will ever forget 9/11 and hopefully we will all learn a lot from that tragedy. But by being CONSTANTLY reminded of it, day in and day out, we will never be able to move forward. And we need to move forward.

*P.S. - It's McVeigh.
Lori: Thanks for the correction on McVeigh.
But, I think 9/11 must be at the forefront today. Afterall, it's defined much of the agenda for both parties; and much of the hatred for Bush centers on 9/11 and his actions after the case.

The job picture was going negative shortly BEFORE he took office; 400,000 jobs were lost in the first month after 9/11. Very persuasive to argue 9/11 was a factor.

Let's also not forget,FDR, a great president in MANY respects constantly reminded the country of Pearl Harbor over the next four years after the attack.
And Dems will use the oft quoted line continuously:"We have squandered the good will the Int'l community gave us on 9/11 by going to War with Iraq..."

Lori, it's a pleasure to meet you. Peacemaker, I'm trying to work for once. The lastcouple weeks have been too much fun and I must catch up. Not sick. Hope yours and Kerrysucks new schoolyearstarts off good.
"shcool,"

Kerrysucks...I too was looking back at some previous posts and chuckled when I saw this. I know, of course, that it's a typo, but it reminds me of how often I misspell psychologist. Sometimes I write it pyschologist. I misspelled it in a resume' once. Embarrassing when you can't even spell what you are. :-)

Lori... You're right about what you said. Yes, it's awful about the jobs. In my home town, there have been two large plants ...one already closed down and the work sent to Germany, and now, another is closing and outsourcing jobs to other countries. Then we have to try to re-train these people (some are too old, yet too young to retire). It's pathetic that our jobs are going overseas.
Here is a snippit from an article in our newspaper.

The former Corning Glass plant, in Parkersburg since the 1940s, was purchased by the SCHOTT Corp. in May 1994.

Company officials had said the decision to close the plant was due to an over-capacity in the North American tubing market and to consolidate technical and manufacturing resources for more efficient production.

The Parkersburg plant manufactured borosilicate glass tubing for pharmaceutical packaging and industrial applications.

Production will go to plants in Germany, Spain and Brazil while marketing, sales and logistics will remain in the United States, company officials said. Lynch said equipment from the Parkersburg plant is expected to be moved to other production sites.

The first melting tank was shut down on Thursday, Lynch said. The second tank will be shut down on Aug. 12.

Each tank has 48 workers, 12 for each of four shifts, said Rick Hill, president of United Steelworkers of America Local 570. Hill has worked at the glass plant for 31 years.

''We started draining the tank (July 21),'' Hill said. ''Layoffs will begin this week.''

The plant will end operations by Aug. 31 and will remain open only for cleaning, Lynch said.

And then....Bush talks about how many jobs he's creating....yeah, if you want to leave the country!!! This isn't just happening in my area, it's happening all over the country. They can hire cheaper labor elsewhere. Well, maybe if the price of living wasn't so high in this country, we wouldn't require such high wages. Minimum wage hasn't increased for many years, but all prices have. It's hard for your average working family to makes ends meet, at all. The middle class family is fast on its way to poverty, so they'll be people like very rich people, like Bill Gates and George Bush, and very poor people, like us.
I also agree with you that 9/11 is a great excuse for everything Bush is and has been doing. It's just a platform for the election so that he can say, "See, I caught Saddam"! Well, he hasn't done much to stop the war on terrorism, and he sure has fucked up the economy, so just what HAS he done? Kerrysucks and Neocon will tell you that WE are the only ones being lied to, but HELLOOOOOO??? They are being lied to, as well....big time! I guess people believe what they want to believe.
"Lori, it's a pleasure to meet you.

Yes, it is. I should have said that. :-)

"Peacemaker, I'm trying to work for once. The lastcouple weeks have been too much fun and I must catch up. Not sick. Hope yours and Kerrysucks new schoolyearstarts off good."

Glad to hear you're not sick, Neocon. I, too, am extremely busy at the moment. I'm in the middle of moving, and then the school year begins again. Moving is a nasty business. It's amazing what you can collect over the years. Had no idea I had so much stuff!
I will check this site a couple times a day, if possible, and then I will be gone for awhile, so if you're still here when I get back, we can find something juicy to argue about. :-)
Mean while, I hope all goes well with everybody and you can enjoy the rest of your short vacation, KS.
Peacemaker wrote: "Sometimes I write it pyschologist"

How do you pronounce that? ; )
Just teasing, of course.

On the job front, the sad thing about America is that it's becoming this "information" economy, whereby our jobs are all becoming computer-oriented. That's fine for me personally, but what about the folks who aren't schooled in the use of computers? What about the immigrants who continue to arrive daily? They end up in service jobs (hotels and cleaning and driving cabs, or picking fruits and veggies), as always. The poor serving the wealthy; it never changes.

Meanwhile, the wealthy continue to outsource jobs to Mexico and India and elsewhere, and then wonder why so many people are unemployed here. It's really not Bush's fault (much as I dislike him and his administration); it's the fault of the greedy bastards (to use a favorite phrase of my late mother) always wanting MORE.

Why isn't it ever enough? I make about $62K a year between my full time job and my mom's retirement (left to me as a form of inheritance, but still taxed as income, although you won't ever hear me complain about taxes), and I feel like I have more than enough. So why don't the Leona Helmsleys and Donald Trumps and even the owners of my company feel like they have enough??

And while I'm at it, why don't we pay teachers better? Or the military? Those have to be two of the most important jobs, yet we expect those positions to be filled by those who feel a "calling" and we pay those people shit and then complain that our kids aren't learning and that our military's morale sucks. (I'm a 10-year veteran of the Air Force, and I have some experience with the latter.)

I'm just rambling and shooting from the hip when I should be outside working on my car (finishing up changing my head gasket, whoopee for me).

Off to do that now ... nice to meet all of you!!
This will be my last post here got other things to do.

Bush on DRUGS well well...
http://www.capitolhillblue....

Sadam dying... how convienient.....
http://www.aljazeera.com/cg...
See yáll around & mind how you go!
A comment on "outsourcing". It's not just therich and wealthy doing it. It's become something more permanent, and in alot of ways, is also helping many other struggling nations. Though you may be inclined to disagree, many also believe outsourcing in the long run helps the U.S., an innovator of technology. Personally, I'm going to wait on judgement, but I won't jump in and automatically agree with either you, or Peacemaker.
If Naum is reading this, he'll have alot to say (mainly that I'm a dumb-ass). But take a look at this website. It has alot of literature and great examples of how and why the world is changing.
I tend to believe the world will never progress without serious dialogueon the Third-World. So far, it's all talk and no-action. Friedman's stories on the effects of outsourcing in India are quite enlightening and positive.
After reading stories and reports on this website, I'm inclined to believe that although outsourcing depletes American jobs, it's minimal and it helps these countries tremendously.
I know, I know, I'm a stupid shit Neocon robot.....just read and think.

http://www.aworldconnected....
More outsourcing from a "PROUD LIBERAL"; Robert Reich:

"We should stop pining after the days when millions of Americans stood along assembly lines and continuously bolted, fit, soldered or clamped what went by. Those days are over. and stop blaming poor nations whose workers get very low wages. Of course their wages are low; these nations are poor. They can become more prosperous only by exporting to rich nations. When America blocks their exports by erecting tariffs and subsidizing our domestic industries, we prevent them from doing better. Helping poorer nations become more prosperous is not only in the interest of humanity but also politically wise because it lessens global instability."

From
http://www.prospect.org/web...
Hi Everyone!

Welcome Lori!

Zarq, Oh boy, Al Jazeera? Are you friggin kidding me!!????

LOL!
Freidman is a blowhard buffoon who knows not what he speaks of and has been illustrated a fool on this matter:

http://azplace.net/index.ph...

>>Friedman's stories on the effects of outsourcing in India are quite enlightening and positive.
Hi Neocon!
Robert RIIIIIISHHHHHHH is such a a moron! Have you been watching the "Lberal Love Fest" people like to refer to as the convention? LOL! Gee, I wonder why they haven't talked about any of THEIR policies yet?

I love the fact the Fuzzy Wuzzy made a speech about how we should be nicer to each other in politics and then told a reporter to "Shove it"!
Oh, and I love Kerry's sperm suit! Classic! LOL!
Do you listen to Larry Elder? He had Jeanine Garofalo on and she complained that the Republican party is racist, and then she went on her radio show and called Larry a "House Negro". NICE! Isn't that um racist???!!

I saw O'Reily demolish Moore! It was great!
"pyschologist"

I pronounce that pieschologist. I believe it's a scholar of pies. :-)

"but I won't jump in and automatically agree with either you, or Peacemaker."

I'd be surprised if you did.. :-) However, I'm with Naum!! I won't call you a stupid dumb ass, or a "stupid shit Neocon robot" because you already did.

I intend to check out all the links you guys have posted, but as you know, I'm in the middle of moving, and just haven't had the time. Don't have it now, either. Haven't been watching TV or reading the news and don't know what the $#@&% is going on.
Just wanted to check in and see what you were talking about and say 'hi'!
Hi Peacemaker!

Have fun moving! How long will you be gone? Will you come back?
Fun? You must be kidding! This is a nightmare!!! I don't know how long I'll be gone, but I'll be back. You can't keep a good man down. :-) Hope you guys will still be here when I do finally make it back. Start talking some trash so we can get in a good argument when I do get back. :-)
I'll still be checking in for a few more days before I unplug.
Peacemaker,

It is funny you are moving, because we are looking for a house! Here in California prices are through the roof! When we do find something I am not looking forward to packing!
I will be here and I am sure we will have amny more things to discuss, or should I say argue about. I mean the election is still months away! :)
Kerrysucks: I did hear Jeanine on Hannity. But I only saw portions of the Moore interview. Can't wait for his reaction when the truth hits the screens in "Michael Moore Hates America".\

I knew Naum was lurking. He can sniff out the word, "Outsourcing"
Neocon,
Did you see Kerry's speech last night? I loved how he ripped on Bush and then says, "Mr. Bush we need keep this campaign positive." It was boring! 55 minutes and I still havn't heard any substance! He bragged on himself a lot. The ratings were pretty low too.
Typical hypocrisy by the left.
Let's keep the campaign positive, you fascist, lying bastard, who started the war and purposely killed thousands of innocents!

Let's keep it positive, you racist bastard, who ignores the NAACP convention, only because they compare to KKK, compare your advisors to black slaves...yaddayadda....oh yes, my wife (Teresa Heinz has the gemtle liberal spirit to welcome "Continental Africans" (what the.....)

Let's keep it positive, as I(Kerry)follow up the maniacal Moore on his DEM GRANDSTAND; and follow the stupid shit Raul Gridalva(sp), who wants the UN to monitor the election...as I (Kerry)pick a goddamn trial lawyer (disguised as a middle class 50 milllion dollar man) who fucks the victims, steals from the medical industry and then says, "Health care costs too much."

This is maddening how the hate on the left has been ignored by all, given a free pass throughout the media to shit on conservatives!

Hate drives the left. That's sad and pathetic. I have too much to think about and too much to live for to hate as much as a modern Democrat. FDR, Truman and JFK would hide in shame.
Typical hypocrisy by the left.
Let's keep the campaign positive, you fascist, lying bastard, who started the war and purposely killed thousands of innocents!

Let's keep it positive, you racist bastard, who ignores the NAACP convention, only because they compare to KKK, compare your advisors to black slaves...yaddayadda....oh yes, my wife (Teresa Heinz has the gemtle liberal spirit to welcome "Continental Africans" (what the.....)

Let's keep it positive, as I(Kerry)follow up the maniacal Moore on his DEM GRANDSTAND; and follow the stupid shit Raul Gridalva(sp), who wants the UN to monitor the election...as I (Kerry)pick a goddamn trial lawyer (disguised as a middle class 50 milllion dollar man) who fucks the victims, steals from the medical industry and then says, "Health care costs too much."

This is maddening how the hate on the left has been ignored by all, given a free pass throughout the media to shit on conservatives!

Hate drives the left. That's sad and pathetic. I have too much to think about and too much to live for to hate as much as a modern Democrat. FDR, Truman and JFK would hide in shame.
Neocon,

Did you hear Rush today? Kerry's daughter talked about what a "hero" Kerry is. When she was a little iddy bidy sprig her hamster fell into the river, and her big brave daddy jumped in and rescued it. Then Rush played, "Here I come to save the day, that means MIghty Mouse is on his way!" LOL!
I noticed how Kerry talked about how great he is through out the whole speech. Still he never talks about his record in the senate (or lack there of), and how he stabbed his "Band of Brothers" in the back when he came back from Vietnam.
BUSH: We looked at the intelligence and we saw a threat. Members of the United States Congress from both political parties, including my opponent, looked at the intelligence and they saw a threat. (applause) We went to the United Nations which unanimously demanded a full accounting of Saddam Hussein's weapons programs or "face serious consequences." After twelve years of defiance, he refused to comply with the demands of the free world. When he continued to deceive the weapons inspectors, I had a decision to make -- to hope for the best and to trust the word of a madman and a tyrant, or remember the lessons of September the 11th and defend our country. Given that choice, I will defend America every time! (wild cheering)

This is what Bush said in Springfield Missouri today.

It does bring up a great point. Kerry and all the libs accuse Bush of lying , but they all had access to the SAME info as the president, and Kerry even said last year that Saddam was a threat!
""Michael Moore Hates America"."

You know, a friend and I were just talking about this very thing, yesterday. We've heard this "Michael Morre Hates America" thing, and feel that .... isn't that what makes this country so great?????? I mean Michael Moore, as well as you and I have the freedom, and the right to stand up on TV, make a movie, scream at whomever politician we don't like and tell them what and why we don't like them, etc. Michael Moore is just another American who is expressing that freedom, and just because he's saying something you don't like....well, aren't you doing the same thing?? Isn't that what we're doing here? Your name, KS, is Kerrysucks. That says something (I mean you're not being exactly subtle) about the way you feel about the Democratic candidate for President. You're just doing the same thing Michael Moore is doing, and I say, "Go for it" because this IS America, and we WANT EVERYBODY to be able to enjoy that freedom....don't we...or do you just think you should be the only ones afforded that opportunity? I don't hear any of US saying "RUSH LIMBAUGH HATES AMERICA" because he clearly puts Kerry down. I don't hear any of us saying "KERRYSUCKS HATES AMERICA" because she calls Democrats "pinko, Commie, Hippies, Liars, Stupid, etc., while you make generalized comments like "Hate drives the left". I'm on the left...or so you keep reminding me, and I have never hated anyone in my entire life. I don't hate Bush. Don't like him much, and think he sucks for air, but would never make a comment like "HATE drives the right". It's a ridiculous comment. So, if we think we have the right to get on this www and discuss how WE feel about Bush/Kerry, then we should allow Michael Moore to do the same thing. Or...are you just upset that his movie's made him over $100,000,000.??
And...we are still poor. :-) You can make a movie, too. Go for it. Call it, "How Kerry saved the Hampster and Won 3 Purple Hearts, Too". LOL
Peacemaker,

"Michael Moore hates America" is a title of a documentry about him. I never said he didn't have the right to say what he wants to say. You are right we ALL have the right to say what we want to say. I never said he should be arrested, because freedom of speech means we can say what we want to say and not be persecuted from the government. But we as Americans can say we dislike someone's views because of what him/her is trying to represent.

Michael Moore is a dishonest person who is trying his best to come across as the man that is "for the people". Mean while he makes a living making millions of dollars in an attempt to discredit others with lies. He edits movies together to make it "appear" like something is there when it isn't. He splices together footage and uses pieces to create something that isn't true. Even liberals like Michael Iskoff (sp) and Christopher Hitchens called him dishonest. In this country, yes, you have the right to say what we want to say, but don't get upset when you lie and are called out on it.

Talk about hate driven!!!! The left has called Bush everything from Hitler to a facist, nazi etc. Did you hear Al Sharpton? Al Gore? Even John Kerry? All the speeches were lined with venom.

"Or...are you just upset that his movie's made him over $100,000,000.??"

Upset? No! I am just blown away that that many people have the wool pulled over their eyes, expecting the truth and getting a load of crap! :)

My movie would be called; "The Adventures of Mighty Mouse" LOL! :)
Well, I guess those people that paid a total of $100,000,000.00 to see that movie (and that's a lot of people)(I haven't seen it) don't think that the wool is being pulled over their eyes. I've had my cable shut off (since I'm moving) and haven't been able to watch TV, therefore, I didn't see Kerry's speech or anyone else's. I just don't think it matters what Kerry says, he's gotta be better than Bush. Not talking about MM and his movie, everybody has lived the past 4 years with Bush. The fact that he is practically illiterate isn't something MM made up. We've ALL heard him talk (if that's what you call it). So the joke about him not having a brain is based on truth, as most jokes are. I realize that you don't see what's happening, and I realize that you think it's me who doesn't see what's happening, but when you've been around about 25 more years, it will be easier for you to see history repeating itself (just like clothing styles, etc.) High heel tennis shoes are back in....Oh My God!
I thought I'd die when bell bottoms came back in style. I guess my point is that if you were born in the 90s, you might think that bell bottoms were the newest rage. An good example of this was the song by Chicago "25 or 6 to 4". It came out AGAIN in the early 80s and my daughters were in the car with me. It came on the radio and I started singing. I knew every word. My kids said, "Dad, how do you know all the words, that's a brand new song". They didn't believe me when I told them that it was an old song.
So, back to politics....It's like trying to describe an event. Sometimes you just have to be there. I've been there. I can see things that people your age can't see. This is not a put-down, I was thirty something once, myself, and I had my own way of thinking. I thought my parents didn't really know what was going on, until I got older and realized that they were and always will be smarter than I am because they are older and more experienced and can see things before I do. (Maybe not anymore, since my mother is dead and my dad has alzhiemers).
I know I'm going on, but an even better example is when my little brother (10 yrs. younger than I) rode his bike and said, "Look, watch this", as he took his hands off the handlebars and looked back at me. I would say, "Mickey, you're gonna f..." and he'd be on the ground. For a long time he thought I was a genius. How did I know he was gonna fall? Duh! He was a normal kid...at that age! So, we all learn as we grow older. Bush is not a man I want as the President of this country. I honestly believe he is dangerous, and he frightens me. NO OTHER PRESIDENT HAS EVER FRIGHTENED ME! I might have thought some were bad presidents, but was never fearful of the next 4 years. I am, now, with good reason. So, go ahead and believe that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's exactly how the Germans felt about Hitler. THEY WERE WRONG, WEREN'T THEY?...and today, some feel they were still right. Do YOU think they were right? Time will tell you whether or not you were right or not, but I pray for you and my children and grandchildren. I might live another 30 years (I hope not) but you and your generation and the ones to follows will have to live with the concequences....not me.
Peacemaker,

I can see where you are coming from a little when I look at teenagers and twenty- somethings. Believe it or not the 80's clothes are coming back. Those little ruffled skirts are back! I think I had one of every color.
But to vote for Kerry, who stands for nothing, just becasue he is not Bush, SCARES ME! I don't know where you live, but where I live things are not that bad. The economy is growing and we are winning the war on terror. The 9/11 Commission, that the left has given so much respect to, has said we are winning the war on terror. We have captured Saddam, killed his sons, Libya has given up their nukes, the Taliban is gone, we have seriously damaged al Queda (again according to 9/11 Commissions Report).
It SCARES me to turn this country over to a man who doesn't have a plan, and who is on both sides of an issue. He can't make up his mind. I mean you guys are so concerned that Bush sat there for "7 minutes" but Kerry would probably sit there for "7 days" before he made up his mind on what to do!

I remember the 80's and I remember how the left said the SAME things about Ronald Reagan. They thought he was going to push the "button" at any second. I even had a hippie neighbor that bought a bunch of canned goods to store for the nuclear holocaust!

I have been reading a lot of stuff from the left lately, I have even gone on the Air America message board just to see and read things. I heard Jeanine Garofalo on Hannity and Colmes. I just don't get it. The left ignores the evidence, They are so conspiracy theory driven that they won't believe anything except their therories. Can you answer me a question? What does the Deomcratic wing of the Democratic party mean? I have heard that said quite a lot lately and I don't know what it means. Is it code for " I'm a commie pinko"? J/k! LOL! But what does it mean?

Also to compare, once again, Hitler to Bush is just ridiculous! In what ways are Hitler and Bush the same?
http://timesofindia.indiati...

They think they may have nabbed Zarqawi!
Peacemaker: Whoa, slow down! Can someone answer a question for me? Just what do the words "25, or 6 to 4" mean? This is probably my favorie Chicago song, other than "Beginnings"(I think that's the name, off their first album).
Neocon,

I don't know either.
Do you know what the democratic wing of the democratic party means? I heard Jeanine Garafalo say i,t and John Edwards. I think it is code for I am a commie bastard. J/K LOL!
"I don't know where you live, but where I live things are not that bad. The economy is growing and we are winning the war on terror. The 9/11 Commission, that the left has given so much respect to, has said we are winning the war on terror. We have captured Saddam, killed his sons, Libya has given up their nukes, the Taliban is gone, we have seriously damaged al Queda (again according to 9/11 Commissions Report). "

I live in WV. It's VERY bad, here. Plants have closed down and moved to Germany, leaving thousands of people out of work. Many restaurants have closed their doors, and other people are going out of business because the consumer can't afford to shop there. The prices for homes have skyrocketed, so no one can afford to buy one. And, of course, minimum wage hasn't gone up in God knows how many years. Gas prices are absurd, so people can't afford to go on vacations like they could before. The economy sucks, babe!
And I ask you one question. Are you referring to the people in your nice little neighborhood, or are you referring to all the people in your hometown? There are still doctors, lawyers, etc., here, who the economy isn't affecting. There will always be those people, but the average Joe is in big trouble.
As for capturing Saddam...again, I say that's great, but that's not the point, here. I believe it was Osama bin Laden who attacked this country on 9/11. During the time that NO planes were allowed in the air, 22 planes, all carrying Osama's family and cohorts were allowed to fly. Afterall, we don't want to piss THEM off, because it's a money thing. I really hope you can understand that.
Secondly, I don't know where you get your information, but Al Queda/Taliban, whatever is NOT destroyed. They are just sitting back planning more attacks. I guess you'll find that out when it's done.
You answer ME a question. If they can find Saddam in a little hole, and they can find Jessica Lynch, why can't they find the terrorists who are beheading innocent people, and since we know that OBL is on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border, why can't we find him?
You say we're winning the war on terror. Well, I say it's like the war on drugs. It's a war we will NEVER win because there will always be people making, selling, buying and using drugs, and there will always be people who want to attack and kill somebody. Terror exists right here in our own land. What about the militants and people like Timothy McVeigh? They're still here and still planning. Don't think that Timothy McVeigh was an isolated incident. If you do, you are deluding yourself. Many Americans hate the government, and Alaska is begging to become independent again. They don't want to be a part of the United States.
I also disagree that Kerry doesn't stand for anything. I know he's changed his position on a few things.....so did Bush if you can go back in your memory. I don't know a political candidate who hasn't. They either change their position on an issue (if they feel it's necessary to get elected, or they skirt the issue so as not to make a stand at all...for the same reason). Nothing new.

Neocon: "Can someone answer a question for me? Just what do the words "25, or 6 to 4" mean? "

LOL! I never had a clue. I always liked the song, but never knew what the H--- they were talking about. Now, I knew about songs like Magical Mystery Tour and Puff the Magic Dragon. Some people still think they were singing about a dragon. :-) But never figured out 25 or 6 to 4.
"Do you know what the democratic wing of the democratic party means? "
I don't believe I've ever heard that statement. So, my answer is 'no' I don't know what it means.
BTW, would you tell me what 'evidence' you were referring to? I'd like to know what it is that makes you believe that everything the Republicans say is the gospel truth, and everything we say is a God damned lie. Doesn't that seem strange to even you??? Why is it that you believe that your party doesn't spit out propaganda so that you will believe them, and the Democrats sit around all day making up lies about them?
BTW, saying we're winning the war on terror sure sounds good, doesn't. One reason to keep ole' Bush in office. Saying that the Taliban is all but destroyed ... well, sounds good. One more reason to keep ole' Bush in office, but PROVE THAT TO ME!!! Prove to me that we've won anything. Prove to me that the danger from Osama bin Laden is gone. Prove to me that new jobs are being created by Bush (no, not the ones he's sending overseas, because I live in America) and Prove to me that Bush is an honest, stand-up guy.
Don't bother trying to prove he has a brain....that would be impossible, but just show me evidence of the above. BTW, don't show me some newspaper article, or tell me about a speech or give me some information being fed to you by the government. You talk about the "9/11 Commission"...I remember the Warren Commission. I don't think anyone in their right mind believed what THEY said, but they DID come up with an answer that they thought people would by to end the inquiry. The inquiry, btw, will never end, because no one will ever know the absolute truth about the JFK assassination. But, one thing we do know, is that the Warren commision lied through their teeth to satisfy a country demanding answers. So, PROVE it to me with facts...not found reported by someone, but the real truth....you can't, KS. You're just taking their word for it. That is my whole point. You can't do that. You just can't.
I finally was able to sit down for a minute and look at the Sunday paper. The headlines read:
"Bush, Kerry criss-cross Ohio, W.Va." Now mind you, this is definitely a Republican newspaper.
There is a picture of Kerry on the left..hee! hee! and a picture of Bush on the right. :-)
Under the picture of Bush is a quote Bush made while in a city called Canton, Ohio. "After four more years, there will be better paying jobs in America. After four more years, there will be more small businesses. After four more years, the American economy will continue to be the strongest in the world". Well, people can starve to death in "four more years". I don't think we can survive "four more years". Just to show you how candidates will do and say anything to get votes, the paper says: "In fact, he (Bush) rode into the city on a campaign bus with 10 workers from the Timken Co., which said in May that declining production was behind the decision to close three bearings plants in the Canton area, potentially idling 1,300 employees. " I just traveled on the bus with workers who told him they were nervous about their future", Bush said. "They're concerned. I am, too, and therefore we must have a president who understands that if we're to keep jobs at home, America must be the best place to do business".
"We've turned the corner, and we're not turning back. Results matter."

Well, duh? Results DO matter. Why are all these jobs going overseas for the past 4 years...who's been the President?

Then Bush makes a quote "The economy is strong". That seems to be a contradiction to his quote above. Hmmm.

Under the picture of Kerry is a quote from him. "I don't know what corner (The Bush Administration is) turning, but the corner that I see is jobs turned the corner and just kept on going all the way outside the country to some other place".

So, it appears that Bush is lying. Woah! What a surprise. Because we all know that the economy is NOT strong. We all know that Kerry's quote is right on the money, because we've been sitting here watching people lose jobs and companies closing and small busineses unable to maintain for the past "four years". Like I said, we can't take "four more years" of Bush and his crap!

BTW, KS, where I live is on the Ohio border, and I can walk to Ohio. They are having to close schools in Ohio. In the district where I worked, 2 schools are being forced to close. Yet, "No Child Left Behind". BULLSHIT!
Peacemaker,

Bush and the republicans don't say any of this, the 9/11 Comissions Report does! This was a committee of poilitcal hacks that was joined together to destroy Bush! When the info came out that was favorable to Bush you guys just discard it, but if the info came out that was unfavorable you would be quoting it right and left!

You want me to prove to you with facts, and I have over and over, but you choose not to believe them, but what you will believe is any anecdotal crap that comes out of MoveOn.org, Al Jeezra etc.

" I live in WV. It's VERY bad, here. Plants have closed down and moved to Germany, leaving thousands of people out of work. Many restaurants have closed their doors, and other people are going out of business because the consumer can't afford to shop there. The prices for homes have skyrocketed, so no one can afford to buy one. And, of course, minimum wage hasn't gone up in God knows how many years. Gas prices are absurd, so people can't afford to go on vacations like they could before. The economy sucks, babe! "
This sounds like it came directly from "Roger and Me". Look at the Dow Jones, the economy is growing! Unemployment is down. California is in a huge budget crisis and things aren't that bad here. I see businesses popping up, and talk about real estate! People are making money off their houses, first time buyers are buying houses in California! It is a gold rush! I can get three times what I paid for my house!!!! This is a good sign for the economy!

" believe it was Osama bin Laden who attacked this country on 9/11. During the time that NO planes were allowed in the air, 22 planes, all carrying Osama's family and cohorts were allowed to fly. Afterall, we don't want to piss THEM off, because it's a money thing."

This is directly from Michael Moore and MoveOn.Org. Directly from F9/11! It was refuted by the 9/11 Commissions. Richard Clarke himself said that he issued the flight on September 20, 2001. After flights were allowed. UBL's family has nothing to do with al Queda! You are choosing to believe complete nuts, even LIBERALS like Christopher Hitchens and Michael Iskof say Michael Moore lied!
"Secondly, I don't know where you get your information, but Al Queda/Taliban, whatever is NOT destroyed. They are just sitting back planning more attacks. I guess you'll find that out when it's done."
The Taliban is not in power, al Queda is not as strong. Yes there are terrorist that are still after us, but that is why we must keep going! We are looking for UBL, Clinton was looking for UBL too, UBL hides out and only moves at night. I talked to a guy who was part of the mission to find him. We are bombing the hell out of the areas he is in! It took time to find Saddam, remember the libs we saying , "Why didn't we find Saddam yet?" Then we found Saddam and youguys move on to UBL

"Republicans say is the gospel truth, and everything we say is a God damned lie. Doesn't that seem strange to even you??? Why is it that you believe that your party doesn't spit out propaganda so that you will believe them, and the Democrats sit around all day making up lies about them?"

I never said that, I am showing you the 9/11 comissions report which is suppose to be from both sides!

"So, PROVE it to me with facts...not found reported by someone, but the real truth."

HOW??? You won't ecxept anything form newspaper, articles, bipartisian reports etc. What about Marines, army and sailors who have been over there who I have talked too that say things are much better! Do you believe them???? At this point you just want too believe horrible things about the US, but nothing good.. What about Abu Gariub (Sp) prison? Did you believe that? It came from newspapers? Can you prove to me that happened? It amazes me that libs all jumped on the band wagon for that, but won't believe great news when it comes along. If it's good for America it must be Bush telling them to say it, but if it is bad for America it is the gospel!

I understand that the government isn't always truthful, but you can't go through life thinking EVERYONE is lying to you. You are a psychologist isn't that paranoia?
Peacemaker,

Once again you prove my point that you are very selective in what you believe from news reports. If it's anti-bush it's gospel truth, it it makes Bush look good it's tainted and has the Bush administration's handprints all over it. Please provide me with some substantial proof of how bad the country's econemy is . I could provide you with stories of how bad life was in South Los Angeles, Watts, Lynwood and Compton, durring the so called "Clinton prosperity". Believe it or not, I was struggling to make ends meet during the Clintion years, but I got myself an education and changed that. And before you start in on how I had advantages that others didn't, I lived for several years working full time and going to school full time surviving on a diet consisting of macaroni and cheese, lunch meat and hotdogs. I have an African-American friend who grew up in one of the worst neighborhoods in LA. He put himself through the Art Center School of Design in Pasadena. This is the most prestegious art school in America and tuition is on par with schoools like USC and Notre Dame. When you go to Art Center they tell you don't even think about having a job, they give you that much homework. This friend of mine did over 100 freelance jobs in the 4 years he went there, he slept at the most 4 hours a night. Art supplies are expensive and a good amount of his money went toward art supplies. That meant he had to live off of whatever food he could manage to get from the foodmart at the gas station, since that was the only credit card he could get. By time he graduated he lost about 60 pounds. This was all during the wonderful Clinton years when everybody had money just falling out of thier pockets. It's funny that now in the terrible Bush times my friend just got a better job than his last one is making great money and just bought his first home.

As far as eductation goes, Bush has allocated more money to education than Clinton did. According to Kweisi Mfume, the problem with the schools isn't at the federal level, it's at the state level. The states are getting the money and not putting it toward educatioin.
"Bush and the republicans don't say any of this, the 9/11 Comissions Report does! This was a committee of poilitcal hacks that was joined together to destroy Bush! "

First let me say that I don't have time right now to read all you posted, but honey, who do you suppose selects these commissions?
Now, since you said that we're winning the war on terror, and that Al Queda is all but destroyed, please read this: Bush and the republicans don't say any of this, the 9/11 Comissions Report does! This was a committee of poilitcal hacks that was joined together to destroy Bush! http://my.yahoo.com/p/d.html?v

This is not just in one paper and this is not just one news article. And please don't say it's a left wing newspaper. It's just news. When the planes hit the WTC, all the media reported on it. It wasn't leftwing or rightwing it was news. This is just news. Read it, and I'll come back tomorrow, finish reading your posts and comment.
Oh, and P.S. Bush took $27,000.000.00 from No Child Left Behind. I can't believe as a teacher you don't know this.
i am not sure what your point is with your link. I read it and........??????? If it is that terrorist still exist, NO DUH! I never said they didn't, but we have made PROGRESS!

My point was before the 9/11 commissions were great until info came out that the made Bush look good, then they were " picked by Bush and the Republicans". I think if Bush selected them he would have picked better than Bob Kerry and Jamie Gorlec etc.

Where did you find that Bush cut NCLB by 27 billion? What is your source?
http://kare11.com/news/news...

A democrat thinks the economy is doing great and is supporting Bush! YEE HAW!
"Also to compare, once again, Hitler to Bush is just ridiculous! In what ways are Hitler and Bush the same? "

This is much like me trying to explain to my little brother how I knew he was going to fall. I'd never fallen like that, so it wasn't exactly experience. I didn't take a class on proper bicycle riding, so it wasn't education. It was just something I knew. It was because I'd been here longer and could see things he couldn't I guess. I'm not the only person who sees this coming in America, and if I were you, I'd really pay attention to what Zarq said about the other countries (especially Austria) seeing the same comparison. Austria, lived through the same thing. It's hard to explain how we can see history repeating itself. Guess you just had to live through the history.
"I can see where you are coming from a little when I look at teenagers and twenty- somethings. Believe it or not the 80's clothes are coming back. Those little ruffled skirts are back! I think I had one of every color."

See, you admit that you can see (not just clothing styles repeating themselves) but your reference to 20-somethings...and knowing what you know vs. what they know. They probably think those little ruffled skirts are a new style. You know better. Not because of education or because you're smarter than they are, you've just been here longer. If I'm still alive when you're pushing 60 something, I'd sure love to hear from you again, about all of this. It would be an interesting discussion.

"Unemployment is down. California is in a huge budget crisis and things aren't that bad here. I see businesses popping up, and talk about real estate! People are making money off their houses, first time buyers are buying houses in California! It is a gold rush! I can get three times what I paid for my house!!!! This is a good sign for the economy! "
Well, God Bless California, but there are 49 other states, and trust me, it's not like that there. Of course people are making money from selling their homes. Prices on homes, as I said, are skyrocketing. No, people really can't afford to buy them. Oh, of course, SOME people can. During the depression, SOME people managed to survive their lifestyles. Some even made money on the depression, buy many wealthy people jumped out of windows or put guns to their heads. People stood for hours in bread lines. So maybe some people could have said the economy was good, but duh....it wasn't.
"HOW??? You won't ecxept anything form newspaper, articles, bipartisian reports etc. What about Marines, army and sailors who have been over there who I have talked too that say things are much better! Do you believe them????"
This is an intersting comment as well. You say I won't except anything from newspaper articles, etc. (I liked your bipartisian remark). You wouldn't except anything that I show you from a newspaper, and if I called it bipartisan, you'd call it leftist crap. Anyone can write anything in a newspaper, and most have a tinge of prejudice because the writer is going to make his story lean on his side. I was taught Columbus discovered America...but now we all know he really didn't, so you can't really rely on what you read in books or newspapers. And I hear men who came back who say the opposite of what you just said you heard....it's just like this forum....each soldier coming back has a different opinion and view on what's going on over there.
"I understand that the government isn't always truthful, but you can't go through life thinking EVERYONE is lying to you. You are a psychologist isn't that paranoia? "

Paranoia is believing that everyone is out to get you. I do not believe that everyone is lying to me. However, I can see what the truths and the lies are. YOU are the one who believes only YOUR side and sees no lies from them. You are the one who believes everything the other side is saying IS a lie. I call that being one-sided, narrow-minded and unwilling to see that there are lies coming from both sides and truths coming from both sides. You're supposed to be able to sift through them (using your knowledge, common sense, etc.) to figure out where the truth lies. My only point was that you seem to (from all of your posts) believe that the Republicans are TOTALLY honest, and the Democrats are ALL liars. You wouldn't handle a class like this, would you? Wouldn't you examine a little more thoroughly before making a decision on who was lying and who was telling the truth? Then also realize, that after you make your decision, that later you might find you were wrong. I know I'm being lied to, by both parties. They both have their agendas. Neither care if I lose my home or my job. Neither think of what is really best for Americans....they're basically just after the position, the fame, the power, etc. I can just see more about Bush, I believe, than you can.

Will finish this later. Sorry it will have to be sporatic.
Peacemaker,

With all do respect, you still have yet to give me cold hard facts! In a court of law you have to be proven guilt or innocence. A lawyer can't walk in front of the court and say, "Your honor I have no evidence, but I have an intuition that this man is guilty, due to my experience and the things I have seen." There are facts, like the site I gave you to read above from MSN where a democrat is supporting Bush. MSN is not a Republican organization, and it is a democrat who says the economy is strong. The DOW isn't democrat or Repubilican and it shows positive signs. Real Estate isn't either and it is evidence that the economy is strong. My friend that I told you about that worked his way through school just bought a house in Nevada, my family lives in Missouri, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Iowa, Washington, and Idaho. They all are doing fine! They are not by any means rich!
Did you notice that the Dems aren't bringing up the economy? You know why? Because it is good! Remember 1992 "It's the economy stupid!" Well they havne't been harping on it and it is an election year!

Zarq believes that Americans cut off Nick Berg's head! He quotes Al Jeezra!!!! No offense, but what do you do with that? You didn 't believe "Baghdad Bob" did you?

I never once said that all the republicans are right. I know politics, and there is spin on both sides. My dad always said to look at both sides of an issue and then make your decesion, I do that! I read articles that lean to the left and the right.

What I wanted from you is evidence that Bush is like Hitler. Is he planning to kill Jewish people? Hitler, as you know was a horrible man. How do I know that? By reading books, articles, tv shows etc. Maybe Hitler was great, because according to you, maybe ALL the books were lying, then maybe that is a compliment! Hey ya!

You yourself are all behind Kerry, why is that? I have caught Kerry in several lies! He keeps saying that Bush "misled" America. That is not true! As I have explained countless times looking at all the intels from around the world! Now Tommy Franks came out and included Jordon to the list that said Saddam had WMDs. So how come you believe Kerry then? What is he going to do to mkae you feel safer? Becasue he scares the hell out of me! He is going to raise taxes, which will screw the economy, I still don't know what he plans to do with Iraq. My point is you say both sides lie, and then you jump on the Kerry band wagon. Why Kerry? Why not Nader? Why not skip voting all together? You keep saying you see bad things about Bush. Well what? Why would Kerry be so much better?
you might want to read this; just a little info to add to your opinon of the great John Kerry,

http://www.newsmax.com/arch...
Interesting comments. Peacemaker, aren't you being a little sexist with "honey and babe"????? :)))))(joke!)

Peacemaker, you make a point about WV being in the dumps. Then you criticize Kerrysucks for using Cal as an example of success. Hey, shit happens allthe time. Don't be goaded in thinking eight years prior all the states were dancing on golden shoes and pissing on diamond toilets.
The crazy nineties saw a general pattern across the country of unfettered prosperity; it was a house of cards generated by exaggerated values of tech companies and internet business. Thus, the fix over the last four years.(By the way, in the nineties, I still made shit; but so what? It's still better than Jack-Shit).

Now today, on a national scale, the economy is coming back in huge strides. California, Arizona and other western states (except Washington perhaps) are progressing well.
Construction of new homes has just RECENTLY slowed, due to increases inused home purchases. Either way, people are buying this shit because they can. That's Good news' it means people do have money.

Outsourcing? Already sent you the links. Too bad it isn't as easy as condeming wealthy corrupt business and Pres Bush. It's not. Take a look at the tremendous changes in Agriculture over the last century. We're supplementing our farmers now...technology moves light years faster than farming.

As far as the war on terror; we've destroyed the central leadership of Taliban and Al Qaeda. Of course there's more to do; Bush said long ago it would last YEARS, if not DECADES. I say keep it up. We know terrorists want power using terror. They'll continually kill us if we do nothing. Kill em All. That's the only way to do it. I don't care how long it takes.

The current Democratic Party has leaned so far left, they're using demagogues and outright liars to justify opposition to Bush. They've become obsessed with hatred, that they're willing to entertain notions of government cover-ups when none was even apparent. Take today....after a weekend in which evidence was shown about attacks at Fin. Insts. in NY and Chicago, the Government issued warnings and local elevated terror warnings.
Predictably, the Dems consider this a POLITICAL act to get ratings. BUT, if something occurred with NO warning (i.e. 9/11), of course, they would ask, "Why did Bush do nothing and not warn us?"
This is pathetic on a large scale. I've watched the Dems since 1995 sink into a quagmire of hate, envy and bitter PARTISANSHIP.

"Neither care if I lose my home or my job. Neither think of what is really best for Americans....they're basically just after the position, the fame, the power, etc. I can just see more about Bush, I believe, than you can."

Tell me which leader ever gave a shit about you, Peacemaker? The answer is NONE. They excercise the laws made by Congress; they don't have the time to look at one person at a time. It sounds like you have no respect for any politician, so as Kerrysucks says, tell me how Kerry will care for you? Tell us what you see about Kerry that makes you think he cares.
We don't think Repubs are perfect, or that they are always right. We do believe, however, that ideologically, Republicans stand for what is RIGHT in America.
Neocon,
Yes! I agree with everything you said, and it is not becasue you are a republican! :)

Another article on how the economy is doing better:

http://story.news.yahoo.com...

This is from Yahoo so I think you can trust them. :)
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The American manufacturing sector sped up activity in July, cementing the longest stretch of rapid growth in more than 30 years, a survey showed.

My link isn't working, so here is part of it, you can find the article on Yahoo Business AFP.
Amen to agreeing, Kerrysucks! Morning Glory; Evening Grace!

Forbes.com has the same article posted, as well:
http://www.forbes.com/feeds...

Some tidbits:
In the first sign the U.S. economy is coming out of its recent stall, the manufacturing sector expanded at a respectable rate in July on strong orders and higher production rates.

The Institute for Supply Management said Monday its manufacturing index registered 62.0 last month, up from 61.1 in June. It was the 14th consecutive monthly increase and was in line with the consensus forecast of analysts.

An index reading above 50 indicates expansion, while one below 50 indicates that manufacturing activity is contracting. The gauge has been above 50 since June of last year....
Thomas Duesterberg, president and chief executive of the Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI in Arlington, Va., called the report "pretty unabashedly positive."

He said the report indicated "that the leadership of the economy is passing from the consumer and government side to the industrial side." The Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI trade group expects overall economic growth of more than 4.5 percent at an annual rate in the second half of the year, up from 3 percent in the April-June quarter.

"Manufacturing will be an engine," Duesterberg said, projecting manufacturing growth of 7.1 percent in the third quarter and 7.8 percent in the fourth.
...."This is the longest period of growth above 60 percent since the 12-month period of July 1972 through June 1973," Ore said. The index peaked at 72.1 in January 1973, he added
THANK YOU NEOCON!

Mornin Glory and Evening Grace to you!

Today I was listening to the radio, and I don't know who the host was, but this woman read an article written by a homosexual man. He said he was a gay activist and that the Republicans not the Democrats seemed to be more accepting! The reason was, in his experience, if a democrat disagreed with him on ANY issue, they would turn on you, insult your intelligence, and try to destroy you. He found that the Democrats were the most intolerant and narrow minded. They can't accept it if you don't happen to agree with them. HMMMMM...... that is soooooo interesting because I have experienced the same thing! LOL!
"With all do respect, you still have yet to give me cold hard facts! In a court of law you have to be proven guilt or innocence. "

That's what I asked you for, but so far haven't seen any. You're just spouting off what you've read, like you did about Viet Nam. I think if you were honest, you would admit that I humbled you a little when I told you I was there after you dared to ask ME what I knew about it, insinuating that it was only by reading books and watching movies. I had the cold hard facts. Where are yours?
I know you were referring to clothing styles, but surely you can admit that you can see the consequences of something a 20 something person might be doing before they do. Right? Well, do you need cold hard facts? I guess the fact is that you've been there, done that. Sometimes that's all the facts that are needed. When my brother kept falling off his bike, I didn't have to do research to show him the cold hard facts of what would happen if he did what he did. He learned the hard way, like most of us. This is not different. It's just a matter of I can see something that you can't and it's all because of the differences in our ages and experience. He didn't listen to me, and he fell. He continued to fall (thinking I was a genius) until he learned the hard way. You don't listen to me (thinking I'm an idiot) and you will learn the same way he did. That's all the facts I need.
However, I did ask you for some facts, so I'm still waiting for them? I did give you some facts. Fact#1. Germans thought Hitler was wonderful. Fact#2 They voted for him. Fact#3. He had them hoodwinked. Fact#4 He lied to the people. Fact#5. The people didn't believe he lied to them. See any comparison? Of course not.
Anyway, Bush has lied to you, but you prefer to believe him and say Kerry is the one lying to you. You can't seem to see what's happening. Another person came onto this website and told you as well (by the way, he's a tad older than I am, so he's been around, too), but you attacked him because he was from a different country. A country that has seen the same thing...he's been there...he's done that. His country can see the same thing happening to this one. All or most of the Germans were in denial. So are you. I can't open your eyes. It will take something devastating to do that, but I bet you one thing....when it does, you'll remember me....and a guy named Zarquon from Austria.

Neocon said: "Interesting comments. Peacemaker, aren't you being a little sexist with "honey and babe"????? :)))))(joke!) "

Yeah, sweetie, I guess I am. Sorry. :-)
Once again, I attempted to post a nice long reply to Kerrysucks. Then after all my thought and effort, it was too long and I lost it. That really pisses me off. So, again, I must tell you that I have been unable to read your posts and will try again tomorrow. I just grabbed a couple tidbits to comment on. I did read a letter today in a letter to the editor from this guy who absolutely hated Michael Moore, but said, "Even if you hate the guy, and you didn't like his movie, that you had to agree that it was just the facts. This guy admitted to being a Republican. He used the word "facts" twice.
"MSN is not a Republican organization, and it is a democrat who says the economy is strong."

First of all, I posted something and told you it was on MSN, and I believe you said I should stop checking out those 'leftist' sites and go to Fox. Just because a democrat says the economy is strong, doesn't mean it is. Just because a Republican says Michale Moore's movie was "just the facts" doesn't mean it really was. These are not facts, KS. A fact is "JFK is dead". That's a fact....btw, so's Elvis. However, there are still those out there who believe that Elvis lives and JFK is living somewhere in an underground tunnel. So, to them, even those facts aren't facts. So just what IS a fact to you? Just because some commission says something doesn't make it a fact. And speaking of your courtrooms, how many innocent people are in prison because the jury heard the 'facts'? How many guilty people are playing golf because the jury heard the 'facts'? It seems to me a fact is what people want to believe, so they call them facts. It's a fact that OJ is guilty. That's what I believe. Ask others, and they'll say it's a fact that he's innocent. I feel the evidence proved he was guilty. That's why we have a jury system, to sort out the 'facts' and come up with an intelligent decision. Sometimes the decisions aren't so intelligent because people see the facts differently, or totally refuse to see the facts at all.
LOL! oh boy Peacemaker! If the basis of your agrument is that if you are older than us that is all you need to prove an agrument. Than what if a 90 year old man from the KKK (Byrd) posted on this board? Then that is all we would need to take his word for it right?

" I did give you some facts. Fact#1. Germans thought Hitler was wonderful. Fact#2 They voted for him. Fact#3. He had them hoodwinked. Fact#4 He lied to the people. Fact#5. The people didn't believe he lied to them. See any comparison? Of course not."

I am just going to take this and replace it with Kerry.

I did give you some facts. Fact#1. Germans thought Kerry was wonderful. Fact#2 They voted for him. Fact#3. He had them hoodwinked. Fact#4 He lied to the people. Fact#5. The people didn't believe he lied to them. See any comparison? Of course not.

Right back at you sugar plum! wink wink!

"I did read a letter today in a letter to the editor from this guy who absolutely hated Michael Moore, but said, "Even if you hate the guy, and you didn't like his movie, that you had to agree that it was just the facts. This guy admitted to being a Republican. He used the word "facts" twice"

Well, how old was he? Because that's all that matters right?

In a court of law you can't just come in and say, "Those are the clothes from the 80's becasue I was there and I know." You have to prove it with specific evidence. Colors, fabrics, stiching, etc.

"I think if you were honest, you would admit that I humbled you a little when I told you I was there after you dared to ask ME what I knew about it, insinuating that it was only by reading books and watching movies. I had the cold hard facts. Where are yours? "

You mean like Lt. Calley? I still haven't heard you respond to that?
Not so fast Peacemaker,

There are some older people out there that claim to have seen Elvis at a 7-11 or two. LOL!
"It seems to me a fact is what people want to believe, so they call them facts."

You are one of those "everything is gray" people aren't you?

If you say facts are what you choose to believe, then what is reality? When I was in high school a guy I knew took a hit of acid and said that chickens were attacking him. So does that make it so? Don't you think the people that choose to believe that JFK is alive and Elvis is hanging out at the 7-11 are crazy? What about the Flat Earth Society? There are absolute truths. The sky is blue. The Pacific Ocean is bigger than the Atlantic Ocean. There are 50 states in America.

You have only offered opinons, we are suppose to just take your word for it. The 9/11 commissions took in evidence and examined it and as a committee came up with an assessment. Remember when this commission got together it was to ruin Bush. The left was salivating over what they we find. I just read an article from April written by a lib who was all excited that they were going to prove that Bush lied and didn't do his job. Well that wasn't the case and because thry didn't get what they wanted the 9/11 commission was just a commission with no facts.

That is why I pointed MSN out to you! It is your own lefty source and even they are saying Bush is better. :)

No offense, but you and Zarq believe some crazy stuff. When you start believing Al Jeezra then something is wrong with your reality.
#$&^#@**#$!!!
Again, I've spent time and effort on a damn posting responding to all your statements and question, KS, and the damned thing was too long, again, so I lost it. Naum..can't you save this stuff so that when your link shows up to go back that it will still be there and we can edit it?
Or...have a word count somewhere.
KS. I have to get off here, but I'll just add the last thing I wrote, and try to come back later to finish the rest.
"There are absolute truths. The sky is blue. The Pacific Ocean is bigger than the Atlantic Ocean. There are 50 states in America."

I said, "Absolute truths, huh?" Well, the sky is often gray. I'm looking out the window, and can see it. It's definitely not blue. Did you measure the Pacific Ocean personally, or did you read that somewhere in a book? Do you really know this is a fact? There are 50 states, at the moment, but up until I started high school, there were only 48 states. If Alaska gets back it's independence, there will only be 49.
Absolute truths change or are not necessarily absolute....like the blue sky. Is it blue at night?
This blog software lacks some post features but one thing that would aid you is switching to an alternate browser where it would not lose your typed textbox text. When I click on [Back] button (using Safari on Mac OS X), I still see all the text in the box. I know that's not the case with MSIE.

I am enjoying the dialog here but soon I'll have to close the comments out - pushing the limits of this blog software (and my bandwidth total for the month...) at least until I enhance or upgrade ... I need to post another story related or setup some links at the bottom where the posting can continue.

>>Again, I've spent time and effort on a damn posting responding to all your statements and question, KS, and the damned thing was too long, again, so I lost it. Naum..can't you save this stuff so that when your link shows up to go back that it will still be there and we can edit it?
Naum, Iwondered how long it would be before you kicked usout of this particular post. I sometimes wait 10-20 seconds to view posts, I can only imagine the strain on your server.
Peacemaker: Can we put some "sillyshit" to rest?

"Fact#1. Germans thought Hitler was wonderful. Fact#2 They voted for him. Fact#3. He had them hoodwinked. Fact#4 He lied to the people. Fact#5. The people didn't believe he lied to them. See any comparison? Of course not."

Good lord, Peacemaker, if these "facts" were all that constituted Fascism and Totalinarianism, the United States would have been so for 200 years. Kerrysucks replaced Hitler with Kerry, but ANY President and Politician can be pasted there.

If you're going to continue the futile attempts to compare Bush to Hitler, try something more concrete and interesting. Of course, there are none, so we'll just leave it. Hell, I wouldn't be crazy enough to compare Clinton, Kerry, Dean, or even Ted Kennedy to Hitler.

"Anyway, Bush has lied to you, but you prefer to believe him and say Kerry is the one lying to you. You can't seem to see what's happening. Another person came onto this website and told you as well (by the way, he's a tad older than I am, so he's been around, too), but you attacked him because he was from a different country. A country that has seen the same thing...he's been there...he's done that. His country can see the same thing happening to this one. All or most of the Germans were in denial. So are you. I can't open your eyes. It will take something devastating to do that, but I bet you one thing....when it does, you'll remember me....and a guy named Zarquon from Austria."

Yadda yadda.....Zarkon is ONE SOCIALIST. You're a victim of your own reasoning, Peacemaker. You tend to believe Zarkon is somehow the wise Austrian who's experienced it all and represents all citizens in one voice. But many more in Austria and the rest of Europe would likely call him an idiot (that's OK, because many think I'm one). Especially in Eastern Europe. Talk to the old folks in Eastern Europe who lived through real Totalitarianism.

Good God, Peacemaker, I've never heard such futilism, pessimism and demagoguery than I've heard lately: "Ooooooooo...we're becoming Fascists! Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh Bush is Hitler!AaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhCan't you see it; you're all blind!"

Relax, have an American beer and smoke a cheap, capitalist made cigar.
It's OK, it's just after 350+ posts, your browser can only load so fast and it becomes difficult to navigate through all the posts.

Even if I haven't participated much in this thread, it's been enjoyable to read and I'm impressed with the respect and civility and would like to see that carried over unto subsequent threads (just like the "Things you have to believe to be a Republican" carried over here...).

Going to pen a piece on where I stand in election 2004, what the crucial issues and where the presidential candidates stand and what it would take for me to change my planned vote. My vote is never sealed in stone, nor should anybodys be, IMO. As you can tell, I'm a Kerry supporter but that's not totally for sure - there are many things about Kerry that bother me and the Bush team could still earn my vote, even if I disagree with many of their political stances - economy, defense, freedom are the big three issues I will compare the candidates on and evaluate...

>>Naum, Iwondered how long it would be before you kicked usout of this particular post. I sometimes wait 10-20 seconds to view posts, I can only imagine the strain on your server.
Holy Shit Naum! Can I post that on StrausPlace?
Peacemaker,

Its getting ridiculous. You know what I mean, you can't possibly run a country with that logic. We have rules, laws, systems of checks and balances. There are concrete truths.

Neocon is right you put a lot of stock in what Zarq says. Zarq is in line with Socialism. See what I can't undetstand is why you are willing to believe as fact ANYTHING bad about this country, but nothing good? I could did up things on Austria, France, Russia etc. and make them look bad. If Europe is so great then why are you still here? Go enjoy the wonderful rays of Socialism, where the water is better, and the grass is greener, and the people are so much nicer. (cough)
I am a registered independent. And I will vote for the best candidate, regardless of political affiliation or previous history. I do dislike George W Bush, mainly for his policy - I've disagreed with nearly every decision he's made in office safe for obvious things or invading Afghanistan (which many would argue was also an "obvious" choice...).

>>Holy Shit Naum! Can I post that on StrausPlace?
Been gone for awhile. My closest friend was buried Friday. I'm ok, but life won't be the same without him.

"There are concrete truths.

I know. You demonstrated a couple...like the sky is blue. Only it isn't always, is it? Just give me a concrete truth....something more concrete than the sky is blue.

Neocon is right you put a lot of stock in what Zarq says.

I put aa lot of stock in my own knowledge, education and experience. I'm open minded enough to listen to what others have to say, and believe Zarq (because I have no reason not to) that the people in his country see something that you might not see, as I, too, see something you apparently do not see.

"See what I can't undetstand is why you are willing to believe as fact ANYTHING bad about this country, but nothing good?"
And what I can't understand is why you are so willing to believe as fact ANYTHING good about this country, but nothing bad!!!
P.S. Cover of AARP, this month, says, "How the Boomer Vote Will Rock America"!!!! Let's see. :-)
Sorry about your friend. :(

A concrete truth, the Earth revolves around the sun.

As far as believing someone form another country, what about my friends who have come here from other countries? Whose parents risked life and limb to get here so their families could live a decent life? What about my ONLY college professor (who wasn't liberal) whose family escaped from communist Russia? All love being Americans! All thank God they live in this great country of ours! Thousands and millions don't sail across the ocean on intertubes to get to ANY other country. So I don't put a lot of stock in what Zarq says, besides you of all people can't take one man's word for it and assume he speaks for All of Austria.

Still you haven't offered any proof, just intuition.
Peacemaker: I'm sure you're aware of the firesorm regarding allegations by Vietnam Vets about Kerry and his four months in Vienam. Many are calling them quacks; McCain has condemned them for opening wounds. Personally, I'm going to sit his out and watch the cards fall where they may. Afterall, I wasn't there. I want to know your opinion, since you were here.
It seems that no one can call them liars, as many of the VVAK are as decorated as Kerry. Likewise, I can't call Kerry a liar about his service, either. Just curious.

I also think Howard Dean can sit his ass down the rest of he Elec Season. His claim of the recent warnings being political have been disproven every day of the last week. I don't know about Kerrysucks, but I was rooting for Dean since last December, hoping he would take the Dem Crown. He's such a crackpot, idiot, it would have been fun watching him melt in front of Bush in the devaes.
"Still you haven't offered any proof, just intuition"

Somehow, I got (I believe we both did) on just what proof you're after. Now, we're talking about the earth. This is a political forum. I previously asked you for proof of your political statements. I haven't received any. My point was that there really isn't any proof ... it's all people's opinions, statements, etc. Yes, my family came here from other countries as well. I believe that's how this country got started. People from Europe came over here and stole it from the Indians...my people included. I don't just take Zarq's word for anything, but am open enough NOT to dismiss it. HE is the one who lives there...I've never been there, so I just listen openly to what he has to say. I do not say that EVERYONE in Austria feels that way. Until I speak to everyone in Austria, I couldn't make such a comment.
"Peacemaker: I'm sure you're aware of the firesorm regarding allegations by Vietnam Vets about Kerry and his four months in Vienam."
Actually, I'm not. I currently have no TV coverage as I've had my cable turned off until I get moved and settled. However, I didn't serve with Kerry and really don't know about his Viet Nam record except for what I've read and heard about it. I couldn't prove to you he won "3 purple hears" :-) except I have no reason to believe it's not true. You can get a purple heart if you break your toe running to the latrine (in active duty), so I don't know if he was shot while attempting some brave, heroic act or if he fell down and hurt himself. I just don't know.

"Personally, I'm going to sit his out and watch the cards fall where they may. Afterall, I wasn't there. I want to know your opinion, since you were here. "

I'm with you. I think I'll sit this one out as well, and just wait and see what happens. The only absolute truth I know is that I'm voting for the only person running who isn't Bush. I was speaking with a friend today who informed me that it's been all over the news that Bush's campaign admits to funnelling money to Nader so that Nader can take votes away from Kerry. All is fair in love and war....and politics. Both will do whatever it takes to win, but I prefer the one who's not such a slimy worm. I think Bush is about as low and underhanded as a person can get, and I will make sure my vote doesn't go his way. That's a concrete fact, KS!
During my moving sale, I watched a big fat woman steal a shirt (it was an American 9/11 shirt). One guy stole a 35mm camera in a case. There were a few other thefts. I figure the economy must be pretty bad if people have to go to a yard sale and steal stuff. :-)
The world is full of sleezeballs, and as I said before the honest man who would really do good for this country isn't dumb enough to run, so that leaves the idiot, greedy, power hungry sleezeballs to run, so you can decide which sleezeball you want to run your country. It's 6 of one .. half a dozen of the other.
The only president who really gave a damn was Kennedy. He didn't need the money, so he couldn't be bought by big corporations, like Bush and the rest of them. He wasn't power hungry. He wanted to do the right thing, and he bucked the system. Change happens very slowy, and Kennedy tried to change things quickly, and it got him killed. You will not see his like again....just more power hungry sleezeballs who are only out for power and greed. You lose either way. Maybe since Bush is contributing to Nader, he's trying to tell us something. Maybe we should ALL vote for Nader. Wouldn't that Rock America!!!???
got lost.. :-)
First of all, you act like the republicans giving to Nader is fact. How do you know it is true?

"During my moving sale, I watched a big fat woman steal a shirt (it was an American 9/11 shirt). One guy stole a 35mm camera in a case. There were a few other thefts. I figure the economy must be pretty bad if people have to go to a yard sale and steal stuff. "

LOL! PLLLLLEASSSSE! Maybe the fat lady was hungry and wanted to eat the shirt! Maybe they were a bunch of commie hippie pinkos with no morals! LOL! J/K! I don't think the fact that people steal has anything to do with the economy. I was dirt poor during the golden age of Clinton and didn't steal a thing, but I had a rich friend who had EVERYTHING and stole all the time.

As far the Nader thing, what about Ross Perot in the 92 and 96 elections? Clinton only won woth 43% 0f the vote in 92 and 46% in 98. You don't think the Dems had anything to do with that? or did they??????

Neocon, I found Dean very entertaining! I thought it would have been great to go against him! I could just see him in the debates with that crazy look in his eyes and screeching away! LOL! It would have been so much fun. Kerry is entertaining though too! I think Kerry has painted himself in the corner, he has a lot of questions to answer about Viet nam. I like the way the Dems are getting Lawyers to remove the 60 second commercial off the air...... I am shocked the DNC is trying to silence someone! I thought they were such believers in free speech!?????

Peacemaker, Why don't you just vote for Nader? Since both parties are evil and greedy?
For everybody: who are you?

http://www.winternet.com/~m...
"The only president who really gave a damn was Kennedy. He didn't need the money, so he couldn't be bought by big corporations, like Bush and the rest of them..."

Uhhhhhhhh.....he got a little help from his fathers friends. He gave a damn? Here are some presidents whom I think gave a damn:

Teddy: (in my mind the greatest of the 20th Century

Taft: Did more trustbusting than even Teddy.

Hoover: A good man who was in the wrong place at a very bad time.

FDR: Wouldn't trade him as a wartime leader for anyone. He was great throughout World War II.

Truman: Gave them Hell.

JFK: Cut taxes when needed and defended protection of democratic countries from communist and despotic aggression (early Reagan if you will).

Reagan: Had simple views that changed the world.
BTW, Peacemaker, we saw hJFK's like in him. Who knows, GW Bush may be likened to him as well....

About Nader, Peacemaker: it's clear in the polls that most people have made up their minds. Nader is insignificant at this point. You listened to your friend and believe this nonsense? I suspect it would be all over thescreens if it were.

Andplease don't judge the national economy on a freaking Yard Sale. Aye Karumba
Nader update: Hecan't run in California. If I'm not mistaken, he can't run in AZ either. Seems tome, if Bush wanted to keep him in the race, he'd ensure enough signatures were on all the state ballots.
Seems another conspiracy theory is come and gone.
"First of all, you act like the republicans giving to Nader is fact. How do you know it is true? "

I don't know it's a fact. I just heard it on the news. It was reported that the Republicans were admitting it. You don't know it isn't a fact, so here we go on the 'nobody's got any real facts' shit, again.

"I don't think the fact that people steal has anything to do with the economy."
I was joking....calm down!! Besides, she wasn't hungry, I can assure you. Nobody THAT fat isn't getting enough to eat.

"Peacemaker, Why don't you just vote for Nader? Since both parties are evil and greedy? "

Obviously the reason the Republicans are tunelling money his way... :-)
You know KS, there's just not talking to a brick wall. Words come out of your mouth from God knows where...'cause I didn't use the word evil, and if you're dumb enough to believe they're both not greedy, then you're too young to be on here. I'm sure you're a nice person, but you are totally one-sided, stubborn, and so damned sure you're right about everything. I find you somewhat amusing.


"BTW, Peacemaker, we saw hJFK's like in him. Who knows, GW Bush may be likened to him as well.... "

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!! You've GOT to be kidding! Woosh! LOL....sorry, can't stop laughing. I've heard some dumb things in my day, but that takes the prize.

"About Nader, Peacemaker: it's clear in the polls that most people have made up their minds. Nader is insignificant at this point.

I believe Nader was insignifant from the beginning. Do you ever read my posts? NO! I've made the statement more than once, that it's a two party system, and that no one will vote for Nader, Perot, Me, You, or any other person who runs that's not a Democrat or a Republican!!!


" You listened to your friend and believe this nonsense? I suspect it would be all over thescreens if it were.""


Huh? I don't know what you're referring to....what friend? What would be all over the screens?

"And please don't judge the national economy on a freaking Yard Sale. Aye Karumba "
Duh? Are you really serious about this crap???
LOL!! Aye Karumba!


"FDR: Wouldn't trade him as a wartime leader for anyone. He was great throughout World War II.

Truman: Gave them Hell.

JFK: Cut taxes when needed and defended protection of democratic countries from communist and despotic aggression (early Reagan if you will).

Reagan: Had simple views that changed the world.
BTW, Peacemaker, we saw hJFK's like in him. Who knows, GW Bush may be likened to him as well.... "


It appears you know very little about the past presidents. Try reading a little history. Oh, and btw, if you hate the democratic pinko, hippie, commies, etc., then don't speak so highly of FDR. He started it all!!! Like I said, read a little. There's an old saying....and in all sayings there's a bit of truth, you know, like, "A stitch in time saves nine", or "The early bird catches the worm". You probably haven't heard any of them, but here's one: "Those who can DO; those who can't TEACH! I didn't make that up. :-)
"You know KS, there's just not talking to a brick wall. Words come out of your mouth from God knows where...'cause I didn't use the word evil, and if you're dumb enough to believe they're both not greedy, then you're too young to be on here. I'm sure you're a nice person, but you are totally one-sided, stubborn, and so damned sure you're right about everything. I find you somewhat amusing"

Funny, here we ago again with the personal insults! You have yet to offer up any facts of any substance yet on this board and there you ago again with your insults! Your play on words, I have noticed, is a way to squrim out of an agrument when you are wrong. You have likened Bush to Hitler on several occasions, if Hitler isn't evil, then why worry about them being similar? What about Ashcroft, Trent Lott or Rumsfeld, what do you think of them? There is also your condescending attitude! We are suppose to just take your word for it all the time because "You have seen it." or a crackpot form another country agrees with you.

"it appears you know very little about the past presidents. Try reading a little history. Oh, and btw, if you hate the democratic pinko, hippie, commies, etc., then don't speak so highly of FDR. He started it all!!! Like I said, read a little."


First of all, if you had read the posts correctly you would know that I didn't post that, but it is factual! Neocon is right! Maybe you should get your nose out of your "Revisonist History" books and come to reality! Everytime your opinion is not supported by history you instruct everyone to disregaurd history because it can't be trusted. Now that Neocon has made a good point you dismiss it because he doesn't know history. You can't have it both ways Jack!

And then this quote! My My what would your educational friends say about this???

"Those who can DO; those who can't TEACH! I didn't make that up. :-)

Any school psychologist that I have ever known would never have said that to a teacher (even in jest), Since school psychologists consider themselves a part of the educational system.
Neocon,

Did you happen to catch Russert interviewing O'Reily and Paul Krugan on CNBC? It was hysterical!
"You have yet to offer up any facts of any substance yet on this board"

This is the ENTIRE point of ALL OF THIS!!!!!

I've yet to see you offer up any facts either. All you ever say is what somebody told you. Once it was that you heard one democrat say he was voting Republican. Give ME some facts!! I've requested them in each posting, and so far, all I've gotten is that the sky is blue...duh...no it's not. Try again, only this time give me some concrete political facts regarding this forum and not general facts like sometimes the sky is blue, sometimes it's gray, sometimes it's black, and sometimes it's red. Hey, just put your money where your mouth is! Describing Truman as "Give 'em Hell" says nothing about his administration. That was his nickname because he did give 'em Hell, but that's hardly a political statement about what the man did and stood for.
Again, you dismissed or ignored the FDR comment, because he IS the one responsible for everything you hate about this country and the democrats.
Bush is now using scare tactics and will continue to use anything possible to get re-elected. Thank God some of us can see through his bullshit. I know that in most elections too many people don't bother to vote because it's not worth getting out of bed for, considering our choices, but something tells me this election is going to bring them out. I sure hope so.
Peacemaker, I am humbled by your passion, intelligence and ability to tell it like it is! I haveto be reminded by folks like you that I'm still a young whipper-snapper with little life experience, and frankly, no right to argue, much less even discuss issues with a mature, older individual like you and the venerable Zarkon-who being older AND European, has the knowledge and experience to know that Bush is INDEED a wannabee fascist waiting to annihilate all jews, poles, slavs, handicapped and homosexuals as his protege did 60 years ago (are there 12 million of these people here in America?).

You are indeed right that I do not know all the presidents. You see, I've been shammed into reading history written probably by youthful idiots like myself. One day, when I've graduated to the level of a seasoned American, I'll hopefully recieve those secret books that unravel all the secrets of America; revealing the lies told by wackjob fundamentalists, crooked politicians and brainwashed individuals who don't see what's going on...
One day, I'll know that JFK was the ONLY President who gave a damn. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Lincoln- all a bunch of fucking oppurtunists and lawyers.
One day, I'll confidently challenge the liars who thought Lincoln was actually one of the Greatest! Think about it; why would a veteran of the BLACKHAWK WAR (who never saw action) think that he could run the biggest war in American history better than the tried and true veteran General George B. McClellan? The Bastard fixed the election; lied about Gettysburg to get votes and only issued the Emancipation Proclamation to pull the carpet out of the honorable General!
I'll learn that FDR was a dope smoking, hippy freak, who led us into an unnecessary war recklessly and with abandon. His only accomplishment was that he created hippies and the hippy culture that appeared 20 years after his death (hmmm....my youthful mind can't find the connection, but I'll trust you, Peacemaker).
I'll learn that Truman was a trigger happy shithead, who simply replaced a dead commie-pinko, andbought off specialinterests to get reelected again in time to take off on a crazy war in Korea, killing innocents and killing Americans for no reason whatsoever!

And those sayings!!! Oh my God!! I had thought they were simply folk tales:
"A stitch in time saves nine"
"The early bird catches the worm".
"Those who can DO; those who can't TEACH! I didn't make that up. :-)

They MEAN something? Tell me, what does that last one mean, Peacemaker? It sounds very condescending. Is that what I'll belike when I grow up- condescending, insulting, angry?

Kerrysucks, I watched that interview and now realize that O'Reilly was a bully,attacking Krugman needlessly. Shame on you for being young, naive and so arrogant!

In the words of Peacemaker:"Thank God some of us can see through his bullshit."

Can't you see it, Kerrysucks? Can't we all just get along? I'm getting emotional, and terribly upset right now, thinking about how our unelected Hitler wants to take over the world! That's not just merambling either! Other people around the world are saying it, and that's a FACT JACK!
Neocon,
LMAO! Beautiful! Yes, I have been emotional too (Sniffing). I am so worried about what other people around the world are saying that I have chewed off all my finger nails and I'm huddled in the fetal position. I recorded that interview with O'Reily! I couldn't stop laughing! Krugman looked like he was on the verge of the nervous breakdown.

Peacemaker,
Your a "Peace" of work (ooh! that's a bad pun). You are all about feelings, intuitions, and hippie hullcinataions! I now think that you were right about Bush being like Hitler. Who knows maybe he'll be the first American President to sign the orders to round up an ethnic minority group and throw them into camps... Wait FDR already did that. I guess if somebody were to compare somebody to Hitler, that would be a good example. I would never compare FDR to HItler though, that would just be stupid.
Huddled in a fetal position; now that's funny! Reminds me of Homer Simpson rolling on the ground in circles.
I've been confident for months that Bush would win, but after this last month, I'm absolutely certain. The capture of key information and terrorists in Pakistan is incredible good for all of us. The info has led to MORE captures; MORE data on targets abroad, much less the US. Blair was vindicated when it was confirmed they'd planned to bombLondon (he was blamed, predictably, for making the shit up); Bush has now been vindicated, and Howard is still salivating at the mouth like the Angry Dog he is.

I have to say, as well, that Dem reactions to the Swiftboat Vets is also predictable. They were quick to challenge the Repubs to question Kerry's service months ago: we didn't- we questioned his intensions after he returned and got a photo-op with Hanoi Jane. They still accused us of attacking a veteran and claimed he as a vet would be a better leader. Yet, they casually forget to mention that GHW Bush and Bob Dole were veterans of WWII, while Clinton did not serve. It didn't matter then, it does now.
Now, when veterans rise up to condemn Kerry, they're scum, wackjobs, and paid goons of the GOP, or better, BUSH!

Bush (the stupid idiot, Peacemaker)was quick to say, "our campaign won't question, or gripe about his service." What they did suggest is complete siezure of all negative ads (you know, Bush is Hitler; Bush targets innocents; Bush knew about 9/11; Bush is a coward for reading to kids on 9/11; Bush lost 3 million jobs). He also proposed cutting soft-campaign finances out of the campaign, knowing that Kerry and the Dems wouldn't. Politics is a double edged sword. Get used to it. Conservatives have.
Neocon,
Amen to that! I like these "Free Speech" Libs that don't even want to give these Swiftboat Vets the chance to be heard! I guess if you are calling Bush a facist or Hitler that is fine but, 200 Vets utter a whisper about the honorable John Kerry than they are called liars, crackpots, and partisian And where the hell is 60 Minutes??? I mean haven't they had every anti Bush book in the free world on, but then a book comes along and isn't favorable (to say the least) to Kerry and they choose not to discuss it! HMMMMMM....... sounds like media bias to me!

I think Bush is going to win too! My dad said you give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves, Well Kerry has got the noose around his neck. As Ricky Ricardo would say, "He's got lot of esplainin to do!" Especially with his Cambodian Christmas, his medals (his poor wounded ass), and that teenage Vietinamese kid!

I think most libs (even the all knowing Peacemaker) are probably looking, or should I say shaking, a lot like that Paul Krugman. Maybe they should get Michael Moore on the ballot so they can vote for him. He might have a better chance, but he would have to take a pay cut to run for president. LOL!
Kerrysucks:
More news today regarding Tommy Franks:
He takes the blame for Bush declaring an end to military operations last year. Franks had been under the impression (from international leaders) that once the military phase of the war was over, they'd send in troops and cash to help with the Peacekeeping and Restructuring of the country.
He rushed to declare an end in the vain hope that the Int'l community would help. They didn't. They lied.

Today, Kerry and the Dems accuse Bush of not enlisting help from the UN (LIE); going in alone (LIE); and of declaring an end to military ops too early (now we know definitely, LIE).

Kerry has admitted that he supported Bush's authority to go to war, but he says, "I would have done it differently." Hardly. He's hopelessly convinced the Intl Comm will throw in their support in Iraq if he's elected. Not the case. They've sat on the sidelines too long, waiting for Bush to fall.

Kerry in office in 1864: "The Public wants an end to war. I'll go to the international community (France, Britain, Russia, Mexico, CSA) and bring our boys home."
i.e. We could possibly have had a Confederate states of America for a period of time (I personally think the CSA could never have survived without the industrious northern USA). You get my point, though.
Neocon,

Yes, I do get your point! And get this, the Los Angeles Times reported yesterday that this "help' from the International community that Kerry claims to have to get our troops out early, isn't going to help at all. They said, "NO way!" They don't want THEIR troops helping out! How stupid is it for Kerry to announce that he would have our troops out by 2005, so the terrorist can just sit around and wait for us to pull out then take over the middle east! Way to go smart all knowing Kerry! BRILLIANT!

Are you a civil war buff? My dad is! He use to cart me around to every battle field!
It's a fascinating era, though I'm not as educated as real buffs. I've purchased Gingrich's first volume of the Gettysburg series. This series is fiction, and focuses on what may have happened had the Confederates won at Gettysburg.

His second volume is out as well, titled- Grant Comes East. Need to get that.

But there is no questioning Lincoln's vision of the United States and why the Civil War was SO important for this country.
Within ten years after the war, the United States was an international economic superpower.
The Civil War also ensured we were the United States of America. This sounds funny, but prior to the war, states and Americans were extrememly independent; loyalties were founded not on the country itself, but on the individual states.

It's also an interesting irony to know that the newly formed Republican Party argued for a stronger, much more central government, while the Democrats argued for States rights and a weakened Federal Institution.

Anyway, fascinating.
Did you know that the reason General Robert E. Lee didn't fight for the Union was because he didn't want to raise his sword against Virginia his home state?

My dad is still like that. He is from Missouri, and the sun rises and sets on it. I think that is why he lovesd the Civil War so much, in Missouri it was literally brother against brother!

It is fascinating! Have you ever been to any of the battle fields? I have been to quite a few. My dad likes to look for the "First Missouri Brigade" this or the "Eighteenth Missouri" That. When I was a teenager he drug me and my mom all over Gettysburg, Shilo, Bull Run, Vicksburg etc. I of course was not thrilled! Now I wished I would have appreciated it more. I even would like to go back!
Hey, you can go back, and probably bill it as business. Afterall, you are a teacher and what better tool than photos and memorabilia from the great sites?

I've been to Gettysburg, but like you, was too young to actually get anything out of it.
Lee waited until the last possible minute to determine which way Virginia would go.

It makes one wonder; what if Virginia had been one of the border states? Which side would he have chosen? Hmmm......
Good idea about the photos, but my dad has them all labled and oraganized along with all the maps, pamphlets and whatever else he found at the battlefields. My dad is just like Hank Hill, "I'll tell you what!"

Did you know that Lee hated slavery too? People assume that because he fought for the confederate side he was fighting to protect slavery. As you probably know, slavery was only one of many issues that led to the war. My dad actually sides with the south, he thought the US should have left the CSA alone and let them sucede. He thought it was their contituitional right to do so. I think he has a point, but I am glad it worked out the way it did. I think the CSA would have ended up joining the US again anyway.

But then what do I know, I am just a stupid, ingnorant, person that believes everything history books tell me. I couldn't possibly handle the "true story" of what is "really" going on out there. I am obviously not suited for any other job since I can't DO anything. That is why I became a dumb ole teacher. Right Peacemaker?
A good literary companion to Civil War buffs is a collecion of letters, speeches, correspondence from Lincoln. A book group called, "Library of America" has compiled such collections from Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, Frederick Douglas, etc.
Anyway, he book provides illuminating deails on Lincoln's raison d'etre so to speak during the Civil War. The first several years was all about bringing the states back, whatever the cost (Emancipation Proclamation was an offer from Lincoln; if accepted by the Confederate States, he would have provided gradual emancipation through federal purchase of slaves visa taxation.
No Confederate State accepted, however, and after 1863, slavery became the second central issue of the war.
At least that's what I interpreted through the vile, revisionist books of the youth. It's interesting to note, though, hat most people don' realize he extent Lincoln went through to end the war. Fascinating!
Lincoln wanted to be President of the whole United States, but the South was so tired of the North "preaching" to them.

The Civil War is fascinating!
Apologize for having to do this, but have to close this topic as I fear my blog software will bust soon. Or maybe just my browser. At any rate, disscussion can be carried on/continued in these threads:

http://azplace.net/index.ph...

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